Feminism and mothers of sons

[DangerCat01]

Hi everyone,
I’ve been having a touch time and it’s making me wonder whether feminism or equality will never be possible because women give birth to boys whom they obviously love and these boys become men.
I’m the mother of one daughter whom I adore and would give my life to so presumably mothers of sons feel the same?

In the last month I’ve lost a big groups of friends and been dismissed from the Women’s Network at work for being a ‘terf’ and I’m wondering if the fight is worth it. Everyone seems so against me. Even my own mother and my sister seem to worship their sons more than their daughters. It’s weird. And creepy. I feel so sad and confused.

Yes I love my son more than life itself.
No I would not tell him it was ok to use women's spaces, not even if he said he believed he was a woman.
I'm sorry about all the shit you've had.

It sounds like as someone who is GC you've had a tough time recently. I'm sorry for that.

But no, OP, it's not because these other women have sons that they are calling you TERF or whatever. I can see how you might feel that way, but it's just coincidence in this case.

I have a girl and a boy. I am determined to bring them up without gender stereotypes. I am frustrated when I see these somehow getting through already. I work hard to challenge every single time either one of them thinks something must/n't happen because that's for girls/boys only. DH does the same. We teach them about consent and respect for their own and others' bodies. I have had to teach DS how to manage changing rooms by himself because I accept that he is too old to come into the ladies at our gym and the family changing facilities are so limited it's almost impossible to access them.

DD's "best" friend is a little boy. He's very "girly". His parents are fine with that but their biggest fear is that at some point he's going to get this idea that he's actually a girl rather than just a boy who likes sparkly things.

I’ve got sons and daughters and love them all enormously. I don’t think humans can change sex or that my sons should be allowed to barge into women’s changing rooms though. I don’t think it’s loving to raise your children, of either sex, to be narcissistic or inward facing or to think their wants trump other peoples rights. It’s just hard to go through life thinking like that. It’s hard to raise a family of your own or get on at work or enjoy anything that requires an ounce of critical thinking if you raise your sons to be self involved porn soaked man children. I’m a feminist mother because I love my children, not in spite of it.

Sometimes I don’t really feel like a proper feminist because I have (a lot of) sons and no daughters I feel it excludes me from some conversations on threads here about why things need to change ‘for our daughters’. Is that what you mean?

I totally understand why women want exclusively female spaces but they are not the ones hanging around outside the men’s when you’ve sent you 8 year old into adult male changing rooms with a load random men.

I’m trying to raise my boys to be kind decent humans. I also worry that the patriarchy has awful consequences for them too because of toxic masculinity and not being able to express emotions etc.

Thank you, this is just the reassurance I needed.

I think the other issue to why my brain is a bit fried at the moment is that coming from a Mediterranean culture, having a son is a BIG deal.

I think I’m a little damaged (prob too strong a term, maybe disturbed would be better) that my Mama made a massive demonstrative fuss of my brother. I know for sure that she loved me by fucking hell, it was like he was the second coming.

My son is a very aware of feminism and understands it as much as a male can. Obviously he hasn't had the experiences I had as a 15-year-old girl but he recognises sexism and unfairness in society and is very aware of gender politics and the danger it poses to women - and girls and boys.

Yes I would hate to send my vulnerable son into somewhere to get undressed with all the other men.

Ok I’m getting it. I think I needed to soften a bit. I’ve been really fucking militant and that’s not conducive to a debate.

My son is great - but I come from a family with a lot of sisters (and one brother), and there was none of the 'sainted boy' attitude in our family!

I'm raising two good feminist allies who understand the Bechdel test, see both parents pulling their weight round the home and never, ever hear that anything is just for boys or girls. Hoping they'll be my contribution to a better future

I think the problem is OP that you have feminism one the one hand and then trans rights activism on the other. These are two completely seperate things.

You can be a feminist and believe that transgender people's human rights should not be voilated. You can be transgender and believe that women's human rights shold not be violated, and then there is a small vocal and very agressive group that really want to do harm to the first group and use the second group by any means necessary as a Trojan Horse to achive that.

Don't ever be fooled into believing otherwise.

Oh and on your other point about sons and daughters. I see where you're coming from in that many cultures value sons over daughters, this is sad but true and we cannot ignore that. I think the only answer is as other posters have commented, take notice and try to raise ours sons to treat girls as equals and raise our girls to understand their true value.

I think I get what the OP is trying to say. As she doesn't have maternal feelings of love for any males she finds it easier to put females first. Mothers of sons may struggle with the idea that many males are misogynistic and have 'rose tinted glasses ' when it comes to their own boys. Is that kind of what you're getting at OP?

@MrsDoylesTeaBags - can you provide any examples of feminists who want to 'violate' the human rights of transgender people?

I can only answer for myself, @DangerCat01. I have three sons, and I am a gender critical feminist. I think it is perfectly possible to be both - indeed, I would argue that feminist women are the BEST people to bring up sons, because we will raise them to be respectful of women, to understand why women need single sex spaces, to see how exploitative of women things like porn are, to understand the need for feminism, and to avoid toxic masculinity.

My boys are all in their 20s now, and I hope and believe I have raised them to be the sort of decent men that society needs.

OP, this statement made me laugh:

I think I’m a little damaged (prob too strong a term, maybe disturbed would be better) that my Mama made a massive demonstrative fuss of my brother. I know for sure that she loved me by fucking hell, it was like he was the second coming.

I have no idea if it's Mediterranean thing, but can assure you, this is pretty much how it is in DH's family (also Mediterranean). it is embarrassing going to her house because of the sheer quantity of photos of him vs his DSis. A

And even knowing that their daughter's husband is an abusive, lazy git, it never ceases to amaze me how often the conversation goes something like, "But SonIL must really struggle with DD - she doesn't even cook him dinner every night" or similar. Does my head in.

Just stepping in what is of course a very emotive subject. Obviously no women who are feminists and have sons are not doing what they can to ensure their boy children dont grow into women despising men.

Unfortunately based on reports from universities and what is going on is schools young men are just as likely to be influenced by a male culture that in the times of social media is openly full of sexist and degrading opinions of women.

And in some cases mothers of those young men wont necessarily be aware that they have those attitudes because how they behave at home wont be how they behave outside of the family circle.

And it is not just Mediterranean culture where as son is valued or treated differently than a duaghter. It doesnt matter how hard we try this creeps in. Ask the daughters of familes who have brothers what they experience. Their mothers might be surprised by what they hear.

As to being thrown of a Women's Network at the NHS, this is just horrible, but part of what we now know about the power of the trans movement. the idea that health workers of all people wouldn't understand that the reality of sex is not the same as the construct of gender. Unfortunely many women in many professions are now finding this. So despite the lockdon we all need to do what we can to counter this erasing of women. For instance Pink news is continuing to spew out its hatred of gender critical women, and continues to try and discredit the LGB Alliance.

For the OP I can only hope you have some few friends who you can talk with without fear of criticism and rejection.

And it must be hard in the workplace to feel alienated from colleagues.

And whatever it is you are doing in the NHS thank you. With the stress you are all under the last thing you need is stupid work politics.

Have you seen this thread www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3870547-women-s-network

@Clymene I don't think any feminists want to violate transgender peoples human rights but many TRAs will try to make us believe that feminism is an anti trans belief.

I personally think that feminism and transgenderism are 2 seperate things, but as with the group that DangerCat01 has found herself kicked out of, there are a lot of TRAs who will promulgate a belief that feminists do want to violate trans human rights and use that as a tool to stop women meeting and discussing women's issues.

Thanks everyone.

AnneShirley, you are spot on! Thanks for helping unscramble my head.

Yes Stumbledin! I’m sure it must be the same meeting!

OP, I’m tired and probably haven’t read the thread properly.

But I wonder if what you’re taking about is something not dissimilar from the way heterosexual women sometimes have to make slightly uneasy compromises/concessions when forming relationships with men as partners?

I’ve found the parenting realm quite conformist. Not everyone is into kicking against conformity and I think this can set up a tension between what would be more progressive and the way parenting of boys is happening in the real world, now. Perhaps it puts people on the defensive.

I’ll now reread the thread and realise I’ve completely misunderstood what you wrote, and expressed my reply very poorly.

Then I will have the nap I should’ve had an hour ago

I think I also get where OP is coming from. I have three girls and when speaking to friends with children who are boys about for example a rape trial in the media, the mothers of boys tend to have a different scope to me.

For example '' if the girls didn't want sex why did she go back to the hotel room''

They will naturally put their child in that position and then have a need to defend it, we know this happens as families stick by defendants.

It's easy to say your raising allies but if stastically all women are sexually assaulted in some way in their lifetime then the likelihood is that there will be a proportion of women on this feminist board who no fault of their own are raising men who will assault. So in a sense we birth our oppressors.

All anyone can do is there best.

And it doesn't make anyone less of a feminist because we're not defined by men in our lives.

I’ve been having a touch time and it’s making me wonder whether feminism or equality will never be possible because women give birth to boys whom they obviously love and these boys become men

Equal civil & legal rights have already been achieved...beyond that equality does not have to mean sameness or equality of outcome

Men & women, girls and boys do have differences, as well as similarities, and anyone who has children of both sexes knows this to a greater or lesser extent, depending on the individual child.

Feminism, for me, doesn't mean pretending there are no differences between the sexes at all...it means enabling girls to be and express their full range of potential - and giving them the opportunity to express their talents and skills, which for some girls ( & some boys) are by nature very nurturing, and focused on relationships....while others are more solitary, independent and cerebral, for example.

I'm sorry your friends aren't feminist @LouHotel but I can assure you that I have never thought that. Nor have I changed my mind since having sons.

I'm probably being a bit cranky but I really object to lazy stereotypes like that. Just as you'd probably object if I said that all mothers live to see their daughters married off to a nice man who will take care of them.