Douglas Murray on Guardian's trans war

[BovaryX]

For those looking for some amusement during these bizarre times, there is some scathing humour from Douglas Murray in the Spectator who takes aim at the Guardian and Owen Jones. The latter is apparently seeking to absolve himself of responsibility for his own signature in the notorious petition.

Nevertheless, since having his name leaked as a signatory to the letter Jones has been trying to weasel out of it, saying his name was only added at the last minute and only digitally etc, as though the other signatories had all signed their names in blood during some late night coven. I don't know why Jones is so coy about his name being found to be on the petition. After all, Jones is the only 'journalist' in Britain I can think of who has taken part in a demonstration outside the offices of a national newspaper

Douglas Murray goes on to say he hopes the Guardian will explain

why it is unacceptable to have a feminist in their pages defending women's rights

www.spectator.co.uk/article/The-Guardian-s-trans-rights-civil-war-rumbles-on

As would I testing.

I just think if he didn't want to be all Stasi-esque and had some concerns about being seen to maintain a level of journalistic integrity, we passed that point quite a long time ago. Credibility has been and gone. And he'd stuck the boot in plenty on twitter before this letter.

You can get a couple by registering.

I think the problem I and many others have on the left is a tendency to find some views so unpalatable they shouldn't be allowed a platform. The problem is which views and where do you stop?

For me, it has to be incitement to violence which should be not allowed. But then what do you do about people advocating revolting ideas like paedophilia, for example?

I think the problem I and many others have on the left is a tendency to find some views so unpalatable they shouldn't be allowed a platform. The problem is which views and where do you stop?

I think this is a very serious problem on the left and Suzanne Moore's denunciation is just another example of it. There is an extremely authoritarian tendency among certain left wingers which is becoming more explicit every day. There is only one viewpoint allowed on a whole range of issues which should be open to discussion and debate Trans is just one of them. But instead, a zealous orthodoxy is enforced through bullying and the idiotic paradigm of #no debate. As for paedophilia? It is illegal and anyone promoting it should be subject to the law. Another area where rigid orthodoxy to left wing tropes has been adopted is crime and punishment. If I were Mistress of the Universe, penalties for the violent abuse of women and children and anyone would become alot more draconian......

It is illegal and anyone promoting it should be subject to the law.

So we can only discuss things which are legal? Are the laws we have now never to be changed? I deliberately picked a topic which most people would instinctively want to be silenced. Once you accept the principle that not everything can be discussed the only question is where to draw the line.

One can always campaign to change a law - that is not illegal. Paedophiles did just that in the 1970’s. But that did not allow them to publish obscene material picturing or describing their activities.

So we can only discuss things which are legal? Are the laws we have now never to be changed? I deliberately picked a topic which most people would instinctively want to be silenced. Once you accept the principle that not everything can be discussed the only question is where to draw the line

That is not what I meant, I meant the making or circulating pornography. I think those advocating changing the law should be able to do so. They will find zero support for their agenda.

So the problem we have right now is that women campaigning to keep the law as it is are being intimidated.

The left need to learn that free speech is essential in a democracy.

Yes and anyone who wants change should prove a change is necessary, how it would work in practice and show that won't harm others on its implementation. Instead were all being told a change is needed. End of. No discussion.

'the boy Jones'

I must have missed OJ's solo Daily Mail demonstration. What on earth did he do?

I have centre front row tickets to see him in conversation with Andrew Doyle in May and it'll be cancelled for sure now. (I know, it's it's a small disappointment in the great scheme of things)

That was delicious. Thanks OP

'But then what do you do about people advocating revolting ideas like paedophilia, for example?'

Well Peter tatchell got a piece published about how sex with children is fine, quite a few years ago now.

I'm not sure where the line is either. We have seen with the net and press that suppressing or publishing content that many find outrageous both have an undesirable effect.

I am surprised little OJ didn't draft the ridiculous protest letter of hate.

Background:

2015 Interesting panel discussion about how media were lobbied (Trans Media Watch/ All About Trans/ IPSO etc)

"Paris Lees, Dr Kate Stone, Owen Jones, Freddie McConnell Peter Tatchell, Munroe Bergdorf and Jake Graf discuss the main issues facing the trans community today, and what we all need to do to ensure we live harmoniously and happily as one society. "

The Guardian Live event took place at Amnesty International on 4 June 2015.

www.youtube.com/watch?v=WspvIQEEt4o

April 2018 Dr Kate Stone TedTalk (re IPSO/Sun/Daily Mail)

www.ted.com/talks/kate_stone_the_press_trampled_on_my_privacy_here_s_how_i_took_back_my_story?language=en

January 2018 Helen Belcher Ted Talk 'Changing Media' (re the power of the five people at Trans Media Watch)
www.ted.com/talks/helen_belcher_changing_media

I must have missed OJ's solo Daily Mail demonstration. What on earth did he do?

floisme Ha! I also hadn't heard of this, so googled it. The breathless activist was involved in a demonstration outside the Mail back in 2013 it seems..... He's such a tireless defender of journalistic integrity. Or something.....

“only ‘journalist’ in Britain .....other ‘journalist’ I know... that the boy Jones is on the list....”

Thank you that was enjoyable!

Obviously I enjoyed the dig at OJ etc. But I think it's a bit rich of Murray to pretend that only the left has a problem with freedom of speech. Are we going to pretend that historically the right have never tried to silence dissenters?

And then there's this - a concerted attempt by an organisation called Education Watch to intimidate left-wing academics into keeping quiet:

www.theguardian.com/education/2020/mar/10/mccarthyism-uk-universities-academics-fear-shaming-for-leftwing-views

Is Murray going to speak out against them?

Is that a thing? To be honest I wouldn't trust anything that the Grauniad printed.
And I am sure that Murray would definitely speak against them - why would he not?

There's a paywall; I've already used up my 5 free articles per month. Can someone post the text, please?

For future reference, I was unable to see this until I c&p'ed the URL into an incognito browser. Then I could read the whole of it.

Is that a thing? To be honest I wouldn't trust anything that the Grauniad printed. And I am sure that Murray would definitely speak against them - why would he not?

Of course it's a thing. Are you seriously suggesting that the Guardian made the whole thing up? Why not actually read the article and the links and find out a bit more for yourself?

I'm not saying Murray wouldn't speak against them - it's just that I've yet to see him do it. I absolutely despise the current passion for censorship amongst the left, I'm just saying I don't buy into this smug belief that the right are above censorship. History demonstrates otherwise.

There's totalitarianism on the left and on the right, definitely, but there is thankfully in the UK still also liberalism on the left and on the right too. (At either extreme L/R you get completely stuffed).

The problem we have now is that left "liberalism" has been taken over by totalitarianism on gender issues and other issues, so it's no longer "liberal" in those areas it's just about telling people what to say and think, closing down dissent, but still (under massive cognitive dissonance) believing itself to be and presenting itself to be liberal.

Reducing censorship problems overall to a left-vs-right issue right now is a bit reductionist, but I think we can safely say that when it comes specifically to feminist perspectives on gender ideology issues, those who have platform or power on the left are guilty as sin.
The right wing platform are supporting their voices even though they would disagree on other issues put forward by the same person, the left is silencing them completely.

The bit about the list being made up mostly of people from the IT department was interesting. It's been pointed out here before how over represented TW are in that line of work. Shocking really given what a male dominated field it is - what could the connection possibly be?

The IT thing is odd. I work in IT and the men are just standard blokes. Partners, wives, kids etc. Women in their lives, in other words.

There can't be that many trans women working in guardian IT!

Only thing I can imagine is that men in that type of role like to feel they identify with outsiders/ underdogs (while in actual fact in my work anyway they are well paid, white, generally straight, respected...