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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

India Willoughby in the Times

44 replies

Igneococcus · 15/03/2020 07:25

About trans prisoners:

www.thetimes.co.uk/article/008753e2-6546-11ea-b021-fae459863cfa?shareToken=f8d7881223aa8c869ad368a2bafae7ed

I haven't actually read it yet, I need to go to work for a bit today.

OP posts:
SisyphusLangClegRocks · 15/03/2020 07:36

For those who don't have access.

Opportunities to go inside HMP Stafford, a category-C men’s prison, are rare. The only type of inmate you’ll meet behind the barbed-wire-topped walls and heavy, mechanised doors are men who — for their own safety — cannot be allowed to walk the landings of other jails for fear of attack.

Last week, I was invited by the guards to give a talk to an audience of rapists and paedophiles about being transgender. Some of these men want to move into the wings of female prisons because they self-identify as women, but have no plans to physically transition. There are five such people at Stafford, out of 750 inmates. Four have their own cells. One shares. In the UK as a whole, 153 prisoners self-identify as transgender, out of a population of 85,000.

Officially in Britain, legal transgender status requires a diagnosis by a doctor. But in reality, many walks of life shy away from asking for proof, knowing the outrage it would provoke from transgender campaigners. Which, in a prison context, creates a host of exploitable situations.

Cards on the table. I am trans, the full, medical-transitioned variety. I am not a fan of the divisive campaign that says anyone who calls themselves a woman should be treated like a woman at all times. But I was willing to listen to any compelling arguments.

At Stafford, the corridors are filled with people playing cards and socialising. There is no brooding menace, just the occasional floor-mopper. The men say hello to me and my guard as we pass. And, so far, everyone is obviously a man. Occasionally we pause to swap small talk. I keep having to remind myself that some of these charming chaps have done the sort of things that might get their throats cut in normal jails.

In a room of coloured sofas and chairs that could easily be a Google HQ chillax area, I tell my story to an audience of about 50, stating I’m against self-identification. I take questions and and meet with a round of applause. I even sign an autograph. Nothing quite like a captive audience.

Two of the five self-identified trans women have attended. Neither looks, behaves or sounds female, even though women’s T-shirts and trousers are available for them to wear. The guard agrees I can chat with one of them later.

We head to the office of the prison’s governor, Ralph Lubkowski, passing portraits on walls painted by Rolf Harris, the disgraced entertainer, during his stay here. They include, incongruously, the computer pioneers Steve Jobs and Alan Turing, and Malala Yousafzai, the Nobel prize laureate. Lubkowski is a warm person with bright eyes and beard. He has something of Henry VIII about him.

Learning to accommodate trans prisoners is something he says the prison service struggled with initially, but, after working with LGBT advisers, things have improved.

Anyone who identifies as a trans woman will be referred to by staff using female pronouns, and whatever name they choose. Regardless of how they look, dress or sound, dignity is afforded. If, however, a self-IDer asks for a move to another prison, the request goes before a panel, which reviews the individual’s crime and how much commitment has gone into “transition”.

People who have undergone full medical transition — with or without an official gender-recognition certificate — almost always go through. Self-IDers now mostly don’t — a point that some LGBT campaigners say amounts to discrimination.

“We’re very conscious of risk when making those decisions,” says Lubkowski. “Everyone within the system should be protected. Systems have been tightened up in recent years following certain cases, and we’ve learned a lot.” One case he may be referring to is that of Karen White, who had been convicted of sexual offences against women but self-identified as female and, even though legally still a man, was moved into New Hall women’s prison in West Yorkshire, where she sexually assaulted two other inmates in 2017.

Events before the White case contributed to what the prison service admits was a terrible decision. Months before, Vikki Thompson, a 21-year-old trans prisoner who wasn’t a sex offender and had not undergone surgery, was told she had to stay in the men’s estate at Leeds prison. After being informed, Thompson, who was regarded as being a suicide risk, was found hanged in her cell, though an inquest concluded she did not intend to take her own life.

The Howard League for Penal Reform says trans suicide attempts in the general prison population are 10 times higher than the average. Amid fears of another incident similar to that of Thompson, and amid the heat of LGBT calls for relaxing the rules, White’s transfer was granted. A dedicated wing for trans women opened a year ago at Downview prison, in south London, but has been criticised as opening too soon and failing its inmates.

Trans people in their widest sense have always been a marginalised group — but the situation for medical transitioners has been made worse because of self-identification. Trans acceptance has gone backwards. The air around us has grown more toxic. It feels as though we have been thrown to the wind by the very organisations that are supposed to be representing us. Medical transitioners are outnumbered by a new intake, who have taken the trans word and redefined it.

The charity Stonewall, in effect the governing body of LGBT people in the UK, campaigns to demedicalise transition, at a time when people suffering from genuine gender dysphoria are stuck on five-year waiting lists.

Before I leave Stafford, the guard takes me to meet Chelsea, the middle-aged, pony-tailed self-IDer I had been introduced to earlier. I ask whether she wants to undergo medical transition. She says no, she’s happy as she is. Chelsea is married with a wife and children.

“Don’t you want to dress or look like a woman?” I ask. “No,” replies Chelsea. “It’s not worth the hassle. I’m happy in men’s clothes. I’m not interested in passing as a woman.”

Awning10 · 15/03/2020 07:37

Thanks for posting.

Final 2 paragraphs:

Before I leave Stafford, the guard takes me to meet Chelsea, the middle-aged, pony-tailed self-IDer I had been introduced to earlier. I ask whether she wants to undergo medical transition. She says no, she’s happy as she is. Chelsea is married with a wife and children.

“Don’t you want to dress or look like a woman?” I ask. “No,” replies Chelsea. “It’s not worth the hassle. I’m happy in men’s clothes. I’m not interested in passing as a woman.”

definitelygc · 15/03/2020 07:43

I thought this was a great article and shines a light on the fact that many "self-IDers" do not have gender dysphoria, they are opportunists wanting preferential treatment (or worse). I also appreciated the damning criticism of Stonewall. Unfortunately I think this will fall on deaf ears for the likes of Stonewall/Lisa Nandy et al.

SisyphusLangClegRocks · 15/03/2020 07:44

And there you have it @Awning the very thing we've been warning about for years that got us labeled as ignorant bigots.

Al1Langdownthecleghole · 15/03/2020 08:25

How long has Willoughby been identifying as a newsreader?

Al1Langdownthecleghole · 15/03/2020 08:29

Willoughby and “Chelsea” both have Y chromosomes.

This is an attempt to divide feminists between nice TW and nasty TW (not that I’d put IW on the nice list). It’s a distraction.

Humans can’t change sex.

Binterested · 15/03/2020 09:15

As I keep saying it’s one of the problems with the word transwoman. It perpetuates a lie. There is another more accurate term that we are not allowed to use but it’s recently struck me that the word transwoman is in itself propaganda and Im going to attempt not to use it. Not allowed to say the truth but I will avoid saying transwoman in relation to people like Willoughby.

ScapaFlo · 15/03/2020 09:45

The instant pronoun change on a man declaring he is a woman really does not help. This needs to stop. Remember Barracker's epic post re pronouns.

Also, prisons now affirm these men with female pronouns after guidance from LGBT advisors - guess who? Herrrrre's Stonewall!

Clymene · 15/03/2020 10:01

While I don't believe in tru trans, it's a good article which exposes the absurdity at the heart of self ID

As an aside, can we post share tokens rather than whole articles? We need to support freeeech

Clymene · 15/03/2020 10:06

Free speech even!

And willougby has been a regional newsreader for years

Datun · 15/03/2020 10:28

Anyone who identifies as a trans woman will be referred to by staff using female pronouns, and whatever name they choose. Regardless of how they look, dress or sound, dignity is afforded. If, however, a self-IDer asks for a move to another prison, the request goes before a panel, which reviews the individual’s crime and how much commitment has gone into “transition”.

No. The definition of a woman is NOT a man who is 'committed' to a delusion, a mental health condition, a fetish, or, in other words, a deep seated need to inhabit the stereotype of his version of a woman.

Again, an entire article, written by a person who supposedly has so much affinity for women, they think they are one, which doesn't once mention the actual women this will affect. They just don't figure in Willoughby's agenda.

They don't even cross Willoughby's mind.

Clymene · 15/03/2020 10:44

We are gatekeepers, nothing more

Wearywithteens · 15/03/2020 12:43

This reply has been withdrawn

This has been withdrawn at the poster's request.

TinselAngel · 15/03/2020 12:45

This is a blatant attempt by India to gatekeep transexual access to women's services. I am horrified that Woman's Place have shared it as if it in any way supports women's rights.

HPFA · 15/03/2020 12:51

Not sure why people are very down on the article? Pretty clearly exposes the problems with self-ID and the fact it's written by a transwoman makes it harder to dismiss.

Gibbonsgibbonsgibbons · 15/03/2020 12:54

“everyone is obviously a man“ well quite India.

Not a moment’s consideration for the female prisoners at all it’s disgusting.

Gibbonsgibbonsgibbons · 15/03/2020 13:09

Lord Lucas is still on the case -
mobile.twitter.com/LordLucasCD/status/1239121647459880966

MooseIsLooseInTheHoose · 15/03/2020 13:36

I actually appreciate India speaking out about this stuff. Was thinking this the other day when India was on Good Morning. There is a level of committment and I believe a genuine desire to "be" a woman that India displays that I respect - it's the consistency of it. I don't believe this makes India a woman but it makes some sense in our current society with its social consructions of "woman" and "man", as oppose to the blatant piss-taking of others.

GiantKitten · 15/03/2020 13:51

The Howard League for Penal Reform says trans suicide attempts in the general prison population are 10 times higher than the average.

How can they know that? Hmm

(Haven’t RTFT, apols if already discussed)

Jux · 15/03/2020 13:56

I agree with Moose, that coming from a transwoman this article will be more helpful to us than any amount of trying from us. We are labelled bigots and phobics and few are listening or give a shit about women's views, but they're far more likely to listen to IW because,, well, because......

Fieldofgreycorn · 15/03/2020 14:29

Not sure why people are very down on the article? Pretty clearly exposes the problems with self-ID

Because there are many here who are not just concerned about self ID.

They may say we have self ID in effect now anyway. They do not want any people with a Y chromosomes or born with a penis in female spaces, ever, no matter how they identify.

Qcng · 15/03/2020 16:47

Isn't India the "I am a woman and I'll repeat this till it really penetrates" transwoman?

Clymene · 15/03/2020 16:52

I think India is useful writing articles like this. Partly because speaking out convinces the be kind mob, and partly because it's patently obvious how little Willoughby actually considers women. The narcissism is laid bare.

MissBax · 15/03/2020 17:01

I'm not a particular fan of IW, but I do believe we need voices of 'true' transwomen to shine a light on the absurdity of self-ID. Fully transitioned trans women have existed way before the whole trans'gender'mob that have descended in recent years, and although of course they're still not women, I don't have the same anger towards them that I do for the other gender benders so to speak!
Should they have consulted an actual woman on it? Yes.
But we'd have only been told we don't know what it feels like to be a transwoman and therefore have no say. So getting IW on side is the next best thing.

LittleRootie · 15/03/2020 17:21

Agree that it's important to hear people like IW speaking out about the Self-ID issue and making the concerns clear.