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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Gender-neutral passport rules are 'unlawful', Court of Appeal hears

98 replies

LittleCabbage · 10/03/2020 10:04

www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-50638629

The government's rules on gender-neutral passports are "unlawful" and breach human rights, a court has heard.

Judges at the Court of Appeal are hearing the case of campaigner Christie Elan-Cane, who wants passports to have an "X" category for those who do not identify as fully male nor female.

The campaigner believes the UK's passport process is "inherently discriminatory".

Lawyers representing the home secretary are contesting the legal challenge.

The case centres on whether the current policy run by the UK passport office - which is part of the Home Office - is lawful.

Currently, all UK passport holders have to specify whether they are male or female.

Christie Elan-Cane believes the policy breaches the right to respect for private life, and the right not to be discriminated against on the basis of gender or sex, under the European Convention on Human Rights.

The campaign for recognition of non-gendered identity in UK law and society started more than 25 years ago.

Last year, a High Court challenge calling for gender-neutral passports was lost but the case has now been taken to the Court of Appeal.

On Tuesday, Christie Elan-Cane's lawyer, Kate Gallafent, told the three judges: "There is little which is more fundamental and deeply personal than an individual's gender identity."

She said those affected by the government's current passport rules "face a choice between the degrading experience of applying for, bearing and using a passport that does not accurately reflect their gender identity, or forgoing the use of a passport at all."

People who do not consider themselves as exclusively male or female include members of the trans community and intersex people.

The UN says up to 1.7% of the world's population are born with intersex traits - about the same number of people with red hair.

Male, female and non-binary

The "X" stands for unspecified for people who do not identify as male or female.

Earlier this year, Canada introduced gender-neutral passports with an X category.

Australia, Denmark, the Netherlands, Germany, Malta, New Zealand, Pakistan, India and Nepal already have a third category.

The International Civil Aviation Organisation - the UN agency in charge of air travel - also recognises the "X" option.

Speaking ahead of Tuesday's legal action, Christie Elan-Cane said: "Legitimate identity is a fundamental human right but non-gendered people are treated as though we have no rights.

"It is unacceptable that someone who defines as neither male nor female is forced to declare an inappropriate gender in order to obtain a passport."

It comes as the government prepares to publish its response to a consultation on reforming the Gender Recognition Act 2004, the piece of law that sets out the legal process by which a person can change their gender.

The government said it had more than 100,000 responses to the consultation, which it called "exceptionally high".

In October, the minister for women and equalities, Liz Truss, said it needed time for consideration and she wanted to study it closely.

During last year's High Court proceedings, Christie Elan-Cane's lawyers challenged the lawfulness of the policy administered by Her Majesty's Passport Office.

James Eadie, acting for the home secretary, said the policy maintains an "administratively coherent system for the recognition of gender" and ensures security at national borders.

Ruling on the case in June, a judge said that although he was not at that time satisfied the policy was unlawful, part of the reasoning for the decision was that a comprehensive review had not been completed.

OP posts:
OhHolyJesus · 11/03/2020 09:37

So Christie would feel safer with the women in the women's toilet. Not surprising.

Who would Christie he searched by at airport security?

Maybe if a male security guard was on duty he could identify as non binary and Christie would need to accept this as non binary is valid and indeed Christie has been of this belief for years so you can't throw out your whole belief system for a brief moment due to common sense could you? Unless you were desperate for a pee maybe.

fascinated · 11/03/2020 09:39

Selfish. Just selfish. Makes me angry.

EwwSprouts · 11/03/2020 10:44

Sounds like it was a no to gender neutral passports. Just caught Philip Schofield saying it was a shame we hadn't taken the opportunity to move forward, missed the discussion though.

EwwSprouts · 11/03/2020 10:48

Sorry late to the party didn't realise yesterday's news. Blush

R0wantrees · 11/03/2020 11:34

This statement is worth noting (from Times) & seems to suggest the ruling will be used as leverage:

"Anne Collins, a lawyer at Clifford Chance, the firm that represented Christie Elan-Cane, said the ruling meant that the government “must take into account the rights of such individuals when taking policy decisions, marking a milestone in civil rights litigation on gender identity and LGBTI+ rights”."

www.thetimes.co.uk/article/b4c9b1a4-630e-11ea-8024-40a080f12cd1?shareToken=d1111ccf24379d6b0d44dc63a7d25cb1

Thisismytimetoshine · 11/03/2020 11:45

Christie’s comment that having to have a sex marker on your passport is to “collude in your own social invisibility”.
Can anyone explain to this thicko why acknowledging one’s biological sex on a passport should make you socially invisible?

R0wantrees · 11/03/2020 12:24

Trans activists blurred the definition of sex on a passport many years ago so whilst for most it refers to biological sex, for some this can be changed to refer instead to 'social sex'. A male person can apply to have the opposite sex eg 'female' on his passport having simply asserted his intention to 'live as the opposite sex' & vice versa.
Christie rejects both male & female as 'social sex' / gender markers. It may be best for all if the terms male & female were re-established as referring solely to biological sex.

Thisismytimetoshine · 11/03/2020 12:35

Oh, wow! Confused.

Permanantlypuzzled · 11/03/2020 13:12

You may wish to self identify as any or no gender.
Your biological sex however is fixed and cannot change.
What is there that is so difficult to understand.

R0wantrees · 11/03/2020 13:22

It would be helpful if the GPs & gender Drs (all of whom have medical degrees) questioned why they were writing letters to the Passport Office advising that some of their patients had changed sex.
Surely all doctors know that humans cannot change sex?

Thisismytimetoshine · 11/03/2020 13:23

Just as we all know that as human beings, we are one sex or another whether we “admit” to this or not. Astounding, the whole thing.

R0wantrees · 11/03/2020 13:55

Its quite extraordinary the role that some medical doctors have played in constructing the idea that 'sex-change' is possible rather than supporting their patients better to accept this is a fallacy.

Jux · 11/03/2020 18:35

It's quicker and easier to validate a patient than to try to cope with the complaints and abuse you're likely to suffer if you don't, I guess.

Some of these TRAs are dangerous.

R0wantrees · 11/03/2020 19:00

There's a long history of collusion.
It pre-dates the power of transactivists we see today.

Jux · 11/03/2020 22:25

Why? Why would there be collusion? There was no real need for it 30 years ago, was there? I know intractable cases eventually took the medical/surgical route, but not until they'd been in counselling for at least 2 years.Sorry, I don't understand what you mean by collusion?

My friend was quite straightforward when she (now she, back then he) was telling us about it. SEX doesn't change he said, "I know that" but his presentation and eventually his birth cert etc would. Though actually I don't think she's that worried about the paper/legal stuff, more about her physical aspects. We talk about other things these days, she's been 'she' for years now.

I didn't see any collusion in that, really. Is it the 'living as female/male' thing, when we all know the childhood socialisation stops that being possible in reality?

R0wantrees · 12/03/2020 09:08

Why? Why would there be collusion? There was no real need for it 30 years ago, was there?

Previous thread OP sunkisses wrote,

"BBC Open Door programme 45 years ago on transsexuals - a real jaw dropper
I did a search of Mumsnet and couldn't see any other posts about this extraordinary 1973 discussion show which was produced by transsexuals 45 years ago where they were given free-reign, free from editorial control. Four transsexuals are joined by a psychologist and an MP.

www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/p06c83f4/player

Where to start? Maybe with the show's producer and host, Della Aleksander, who is the most bizarre of all the participants. Della starts by claiming that a "chastened and wiser" Adolf Hitler and Queen Victoria have said, through a medium, that "there was a special role for me, in the reconstruction following a world wide collapse in 1978-79". Della also claims to have been sent from another world where the sexes don't exist and that transsexuals are the only model of a "higher race"! Della also claims to have founded the neo-Nazi sounding European National Movement in South Africa whilst serving in the Army there (I couldn't find any info on them, but they sound well dodgy to me).

Della also seems utterly confused, mis-using the terms 'bisexual' and 'intersex', and appearing to think these words mean transsexual, and that the appearance of nipples on a man means 'we are all transsexuals'. Della is, thankfully, corrected by the psychologist at 33.53 mins in who states that it is important to use the correct terminology, but Della wafts such trivialities away by saying "I don't want to get bogged down in medical questions". The MP, Leo Abse, argues against the 'trans umbrella' (before this term was invented by Stonewall etc) at 36 mins in.

There is clear evidence of autogynephilia (AGP - the sexual fetish of a man loving himself as a woman) at 33.23 when Della says the "sex act" is a "transsexual one", as "one attempts to become and absorb the beloved".

At 26 mins in one of the speakers, Rachel Bowen (the working class northern transsexual with dark hair), says that having a female birth certificate is a "status symbol". Another of the transsexuals, Laura Pralet, at 27 mins preposterously claims that "we are not a minority", and "I have never been a homosexual", even though Laura lives with and has married a man. Laura also says their husband is never happier when they are "in the kitchen", and at 31 mins in says they wanted to become a woman as "women have the best deal anyway".

It's absolutely fascinating and well worth a watch."

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3327193-BBC-Open-Door-programme-45-years-ago-on-transsexuals-a-real-jaw-dropper

Jux · 12/03/2020 15:39

Thank you R0wantrees, it's shocking. I was a teen back then and it was the sort of programme my parents would have watched (so I could have seen it too) but I have no recollection of it at all.

No mention of actual women; my mum would have been fuming!

Jux · 12/03/2020 15:40

They're all mc white and educated. What accents we had back then!

R0wantrees · 12/03/2020 18:10

Yes, it was very much about white middle class men (doctors & MPs) supporting white middle class males (TS & TV of Beaumont Society)

This is at the root.
Women's sex-based rights & Safeguarding were disregarded decades ago.
The sexism is quite something, so too the male-entitlement.

(I do find the 1970's 'telephone voices' amusing)

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3463920-Lets-go-back-to-2007

MoleSmokes · 12/03/2020 20:50

" ‘The court finds that the ‘X’ marker is just one part of a bigger picture that requires a coherent structured approach across all the areas where the issue of non-binary gender arises, particularly given the discussions as to whether there should be any gender boxes on passports (or indeed other official documents) at all.' "

But . . . but . . . but . . . by "gender boxes" on passports and "other official documents" are they referring to "gender" - or to "sex"???

This now needs clarifying every damned time those terms are used. Without clarification, we have no way of knowing which is the intended meaning. In anything involving the law, legislation or policy it leaves things open to interpretation.

They got away with fudging the language of the GRA and then Andew Lansley pulled the wool over everyone's eyes with promises of "single sex wards" when he only ever meant "single gender".

And another thing! Angry . . .

The "right to respect for private life" is so very, very important that:

  • no one must ever know that one has a GRA and has changed one's birth certificate! This is literally the end of the world! People will persecute you and it is so degrading and terrible! "They" want to round us up in camps and kill us! "They" must never know! It is so very dreadful and dangerous and our lives are in such peril that the law should be changed and Companies House should remove any links between current and previous names (however many aliases one may have had). And if they don't do this then I will thcream and thcream till I'm thick!!

OR

  • I must have a ruddy great X on my passport so everyone knows that I am one of those special people, those special people who can choose to be male, female or neither for my own convenience, or to jerk people around, violate their boundaries, embarrass them, shame them, hold them up to public ridicule, get them in trouble with their employers - preferably get them sacked, pursue them through the courts for an apology, compensation for hurt feelings and compel their speech!! Mwahhh-ahhh-ahhh!!! The Power!!!

I tell you what, I am feckin sick of this bullshit. Angry

#RepealTheGRA

MoleSmokes · 12/03/2020 20:55

Typo! "GRC" not "GRA"

R0wantrees · 12/03/2020 21:07

They got away with fudging the language of the GRA and then Andew Lansley pulled the wool over everyone's eyes with promises of "single sex wards" when he only ever meant "single gender".

October 2018 thread, OP Barracker wrote:
"We've been lied to about 'Single SEX' wards since 2010.
medium.com/@anneharperwright/sex-gender-the-nhs-1e8f4e6363a6

They were ALWAYS based upon 'gender'.
The evidence is in NHS documents from 2010.
And the Department of Health were told, by the NHS team, not to tell people wards were segregated by sex, because they knew the policy was based on gender.

But the DOH purposefully used the word sex to the public instead.

We've been deliberately misled."

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3396859-Weve-been-lied-to-about-Single-SEX-wards-since-2010

LadyMonicaBaddingham · 12/03/2020 21:14

Good. This is getting ridiculous.

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