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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Suzanne Moore Guardian - new column

80 replies

Newuser123123 · 10/03/2020 07:22

Despite significant protest :
I wish everyone raw strength, however they identify

www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2020/mar/10/i-wish-everyone-strength-however-they-identify-suzanne-moore?CMP=Share_AndroidApp_Copy_to_clipboard

OP posts:
NeurotrashWarrior · 10/03/2020 12:52

I agree the general public will read it and not have a frigging clue what's she's on about though.

sunshinesupermum · 10/03/2020 12:54

I found the article confusing. Glad it's not just me.

My experience is that most trans/ allies don't give a flying fuck about women's lived experiences, as they relate to their female body, and in their position as women in our society. This.

sunshinesupermum · 10/03/2020 12:56

LindaSmithfanclub comment 100%

FlockofGulls · 10/03/2020 12:59

I read her as quoting Butler and then using that quotation to establish the importance of the her [Moore's] experience of her sexed biological female body.

I thought that was quite clever. And shows she's read & understood Butler, which is more than most gender ideology extremists have done.

LindaSmithfanclub · 10/03/2020 13:04

Yes, Donkey – you might get to that if you are incredibly well-informed and well-read and attuned to Moore's style and subtle irony. For the rest of the world, including me, this latest article is either puzzling or a U-turn.

I really wish I didn't feel this way. I've nothing against Moore but I'm happy to admit that in the light of this probably most of her work has gone over my head.

I'm ever more grateful for the steady, measured, lower-key, systematic route that WPUK and other organisations are taking through this quagmire. And although I don't suppose Posie Parker and I have many views in common, I'm grateful to her and the other women who have just kept going in a straight line, absorbing the flak and refusing to be diverted.

Goosefoot · 10/03/2020 13:17

With regard to Butler, I took her to be saying that there is an element of gender performance in how we think of being a woman, but that in fact that is only a part and probably a small part of it.

Floisme · 10/03/2020 13:19

I think the thing is that a lot of people don't make progress in straight lines. If rational arguments and clear thinking were all that were needed to win this we could have packed up and gone home long ago. But life is messier than that and many of us started on this road not because of logical thinking but because somewhere inside, 'be nice' didn't tie up with what we felt about our bodies, and we resented being told we shouldn't talk about it. I think Moore captures a lot of that and I'm sure she will have reached a lot of people. I do wish she'd captured it more cogently this time but I can't begrudge her a lost weekend.

Justhadathought · 10/03/2020 15:19

I get pissed off with people who step up, say something, then back-track

From her twitter thread today:

"No you wont silence me.....tough titty"

"Stop mansplaining Butler to me . Read some Mzerleau-Ponty or even Marion Young Foucault said however much you repress nature through culture it sneaks back in Kristeva, Irigary, Cixous bring it on guys. I don't write out of nowhere like you tenured academics"

Justhadathought · 10/03/2020 15:20

.....I suspect that piece in the Guardian today was a late night, reflective submission, gratefully received by Katherine Viner.....

Justhadathought · 10/03/2020 15:22

However much you repress nature through culture it sneaks back in

I like this comment - and I think it is not only true, but appropriate for the times we live in, when we need to be more earth centred, not less.

RoyalCorgi · 10/03/2020 16:11

I agree the general public will read it and not have a frigging clue what's she's on about though.

This is the problem. A lot of us here found it confusing, and we're steeped in this stuff. I think it will simply be beyond most people who aren't following this day-in, day-out.

Suzanne Moore is one of those people I really want to like. I agree with her most of the time and I'm sure she's a lovely person. But a lot of the time I find her writing opaque, which is strange for a newspaper columnist.

HarrietThePi · 10/03/2020 16:43

I thought the message was:

"Butler etc say this all stuff about gender (some of which I agree with - and a subtle 'stuff I actually understand better than the average butler-quoter, thank you very much'), and that sex maybe also socially constructed. And wouldn't it be nice if sex really were a social construction, but here are some of my experiences of the bloody glory bits that come from being a member of the female sex. Your experiences of sex and gender are yours, but these are mine. My experiences and those of other women matter too. "

I didn't see it as back tracking at all. I liked it. But it did sound a bit weary, like "I'm tired of this, this is my story and I have as much of a right to tell it as you do. Now please go away."

Lordfrontpaw · 10/03/2020 17:30

The guardian are maybe trying to lure women readers back, baiting the trap with a piece of cheese. I don’t trust them.

LindaSmithfanclub · 10/03/2020 18:05

Stop mansplaining Butler to me . Read some Mzerleau-Ponty or even Marion Young Foucault said however much you repress nature through culture it sneaks back in Kristeva, Irigary, Cixous bring it on guys. I don't write out of nowhere like you tenured academics

Anyone else feel a study-group coming on?

Fallingirl · 10/03/2020 18:09

I too read it as a rebuttal of Butler.

I am also quite taken with this observation: My gender now is irrelevant in ways my body can’t be, for it will deteriorate and cease.

Taken to its logical consequence, the body-denialism of trans ideology may have to deny the existence, in any meaningful way, of death.

Lysistrataknowsherstuff · 10/03/2020 18:15

On the Guardian app it appears side by side with this:

https://www.theguardian.com/society/2020/mar/10/feminist-solidarity-empowers-everyone-the-movement-must-be-trans-inclusive?CMP=ShareiOSAppp_Other

I'm afraid I stopped reading when Helen Belcher was described as 'wonderful'.

Newuser123123 · 10/03/2020 18:16

Lots of cognitive dissonance there from Zoe

OP posts:
Floisme · 10/03/2020 18:24

Ah Zoe Williams. I remember how she used to be quite rude about parents and how they expected the whole world to take an interest in their children, until she became a parent herself and started a column about it.

Ereshkigalangcleg · 10/03/2020 18:52

I never liked Zoe.

Ereshkigalangcleg · 10/03/2020 18:53

Didn't wags call her Woe Zilliams? Which is up there with Tony B Liar.

Floisme · 10/03/2020 19:06

She was a Mumsnet fan as I remember, although, looking at that article, I don't suppose she spent much time on FWR.

ChattyLion · 10/03/2020 19:57

Meh. I liked the previous article because it was clear. I didn’t understand this one.

So I thought Suzanne Moore was saying that Judith Butler’s quote on ‘the construct called ‘sex’ (ie how we construe sex) and the Winterson quote, that both don’t hold up against the reality of sex.. I’d agree with that (though from that quote, Butler possibly would too)

Then Moore says ‘My body is ageing and gender dissipates slightly at menopause because you are free. I want it to be true that sex is as fluid a category as gender, but that hasn’t been my experience‘

Eh? What does she mean you are ‘free’ from ‘gender’ as you age? IME the gender trap comes down very hard on older women in a way it absolutely doesn’t for older men. Older women are expected to care for everyone else all the time as if to justify their own existence, they are seen as no longer fuckable so therefore as totally worthless by some men. Even in less belligerent circumstances they are seen as less than and not taken seriously.

Then Moore quotes is Julia Serano on the ‘fight to be feminine’ then back to calling for women to keep on telling their stories - which felt like can’t everyone just be nicer to each other and we can talk it out.
I mean, she’s really not wrong, niceness would be nicer to deal with. But as women on here often say, sometimes it’s more important (for the good of everyone) to tell the truth, than it is to be kind. We are absolutely not dealing with two sides at equal fault who just each misunderstand each other.

tiktok · 10/03/2020 22:24

Well, I’m steeped in this stuff, too, and I don’t know what she is trying to do....bar say ‘I’m here, still, and have a woman’s body’. Most people, even Guardian readers, have no clue of the role of Butler etc in the development of this crap....though they have might have heard of Jeanette Winterson (who is a trans ally, and who I love as a writer, but whose thoughts on some stuff I’d not give tuppence for....she’s also a fan of woo health therapies).

I’m glad she’s still here, but I would like her to have written this column better 😀

dianebrewster · 10/03/2020 23:18

I thought it was clever. What do the TRAs pick on to disagree with? She quotes Butler ... and yet ... I think she's playing them at their own game.

nonsenceagain · 10/03/2020 23:20

Yes, it's vague but her articles sometimes are. She is a genuinely subtle and suggestive writer. And what a week it must have been for her. Solidarity Suzanne. Take care of yourself.

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