There has to be a word...

[BlueRaincoat1]

...for biologically female people, i.e. people who are of the sex class which produces large gametes, generally have xx chromosomes, and have common biological traits of having a vulva/ vagina and associated other biological characteristics.

There has to be language which easily allows for people with these characteristics to be grouped together. Obviously this word has (and still is) women /girls, but in expanding the meaning of these words to include people without these characteristics the words become meaningless as the biological category.

Do people who want to expand the meaning of the word woman think it is entirely unimportant that there be a word which easily allows people who have these characteristics to be easily classed as a group?

Some think it's unimportant; some think it's actually a bad thing to allow such a useful term to exist. The former is probably the larger group but they give cover to the latter.

Do people who want to expand the meaning of the word woman think it is entirely unimportant that there be a word which easily allows people who have these characteristics to be easily classed as a group?

All evidence to date suggests these people think it is completely unimportant women have a word to accurately describe ourselves as a sex class. Go figure.

There is a word.

We just have to constantly push back against people who use it wrongly.

People are waking up to the fact that language shouldn't be exclusive in any way. Every word should refer to every thing that exists, to avoid anything being left out.

If you understood the words I used in this post, you are an exclusionary bigot. I meant each word to refer to patio grass colourless ideas fox trap qualia man girl baby mushrooms

I recently had to explain to a friend of mine that the word 'woman' has been captured by people who apply to anyone who feels like a woman so when discussing actual, yunno, women, you have to qualify it with 'natal'.

It makes my brain explode. We had a perfectly good word and some activists took it away from us. And now they try using 'wom*n'.

Thy cn fck ff.

pope How utterly toadstoolphobic of you. Toadstool rights are fungus rights!

All evidence to date suggests these people think it is completelyunimportantwomen have a word to accurately describe ourselves as a sex class. Go figure.

See this is how it looks to me too. I do not understand how anyone with any sense at all thinks this can be sensible however . There are words for everything. Everything. And it is so utterly obvious that a word must exist for people with the above characteristics that it beggars belief that it even needs saying.

On a purely linguistic level it is incredible and infuriating to see words corrupted in this way.

Bit what is obviously more important is the consequences of this. Control language and you control the law. You will ultimately control thought at you remove the tools for people to critically think outside of the words provided. It sounds so dramatic and ridiculous, but when one sees what is literally already happening in women's sports, and girls changing rooms, it is clear that (as the hash tag says) this is not a drill.

The book Invisible Women shows what has happened when the words man and he was used to represent men and women, boys and girls.

Although people said that, our brains are not sophisticated enough to override the constant repetition of he and him. So everything was designed and tested for men.

We just need to keep insisting the word woman means woman and being one is a biological fact, not a choice.

There's no way we can give up the word woman and then expect any other word to take its place and not be changed to include men immediately.

Non transwoman of course!

They know perfectly well it’s important. That’s why they are trying to take it away. Because without a word for that class of people (women) it gets much easier to exploit and oppress us and behave in ways that are invasive.

I started a thread on this a couple of months ago.

The conclusion was that TRAs have no word for adult human female.

'Cis' doesn't cover women who identify as male or 'non-binary'.

'Afab' isn't really a word, and could technically include males raised as girls.

'Woman', to TRAs, includes males.

Genderists are erasing the concept of biological females by refusing to name it.

We feminists need to reclaim the word 'woman' from TRAs.

I was going to comment but I think I'll wait for one of the people who believe in gender identity to answer it.

I'm sure I won't be waiting long.

Do you think I've got time to make a brew?

Thats interesting @testing987654321

@EmpressAlexandra Where I am struggling is with the 'they' you refer to. I don't believe that (For example) Lisa Nandy, or Rebecca long-bailey, or many other women who include some males in the definition of woman want to see women oppressed. I wish these people would clearly explain, rather than just saying kindness and inclusivity is important, rather than saying 'respectful discussions's should take place, I wish they would explain if they think that being able to group and identify women by their sex is important, and what word should be used for that.

I see a certain TRA not best known for honesty has screenshotted me on Twitter.

To the TRA - you know 'cis' doesn't cover all adult biological females. It doesn't cover transmen and non-binary people. So what is the TRA word for adult human female?

We already know the answer. Genderism doesn't have a word for adult human female.

Man, Ifeel like a woman...

a certain TRA not best known for honesty

I mean, that could be any of them. No answer though, huh?

Banned from here for being unable to remain within talk guidelines and #bekind? I guess I'll continue to wait.

No answer, just accused of being 'linguistically confused' and using 'terflogic'.

'terflogic'

Otherwise known as 'logic'

You couldn't make it up.

Feymale for “other”?... subtle acknowledgement of that pesky genetic Y

We retain female. Because we fucking are.

About the word 'cis'. I don't like it for the reasons usually explained here- I don't associate myself as having a gender identity, it doesnt make sense to me, and I don't think it's reasonable to attribute words to me that I find logically incoherent.

That aside, even if one accepts the word cis to a degree, it can't sensibly replace woman/girl on a biological level. Cis (as I understand it) means that your gender identity matches the sex which you were observed to be at birth. But what about people who simply cannot have a gender identity- babies, people with severe cognitive disabilities. They cannot have a gender identity as presumably, by anyone's logic, you need to be able to have a sense of yourself in the world to have a gender identity.

So that word girl/woman has to have a meaning without a gender qualifier.

And if the words cis woman and trans woman are both descriptions of women again, the word woman needs to mean something.

So there still remains the need to have a word for the biological sex class set out in my first post .

Is the word female as problematic for some as the word woman? Are women and female used interchangeably in this debate?

I've asked this before and don't think I got an answer. Cis doesn't cut it. Not only does it exclude women such as myself, it also excludes women who identify as trans.

BlueRaincoat1 I don't think "female" gets as much attention, but we do have "the female penis" and so on, so female may as well mean (I don't have a word to end this sentence.. it may as well mean anything).

Also, as female can be used for any female of any species, I find it quite dehumanising in some contexts.

@HarrietThePi
I see what you mean, I hadn't thought of that.
That a female dog has a word, a female horse has a word etc. For a female human not to have a word would be strange.

I suppose we could go with "female bodied humans" - though for short hand we really could do with a word...

I'm going to stick with "woman", no explanation needed. If one is asked for or assumptions are made then I will clarify.

I did actually get told off for calling a customer at work a woman rather than a lady recently . But woman isn't a bad word to me, it's my natural word to use.

There is a word. It's WOMAN.
However far we budge, it won't be enough - so best not to.

I absolutely agree that the word is woman.

I wonder though what word people who think that the word woman is unrelated to biological sex think should be applied to people with certain biological similarities. Or do they think such a word is unimportant?

I dont see that 'cis' works, but I can see that female could possibly, but not if female is also meant to include male bodies (e.g. the female penis as mentioned above).

I think it's extremely important that words having discernable, agreed meanings, and I think it's imperative that women's sex based rights are protected. I just wonder where this is all going to end.