Transcribing request - Victoria Derbyshire programme.

[FloralBunting]

Hi wims, I know there are brilliant transcribers among us, but with all the recent name changes, I'm not sure who to tag or PM about this!

Victoria Derbyshire had an interview with Polly Carmichael on her programme today 2/3/2020, and I'd really appreciate a transcription because Carmichael was really wily in her use of language, and at one point, during the crucial ability to consent question, said that children had specialist knowledge or something. I'd really like to be able to examine what was said with a bit more clarity.

Many thanks for any takers!!

Yes, it reads as though PC's and therefore the Tavistock's argument here is that all that important therapy/counselling isn't really their area. They delegate that more 'locally'.

This is disingenous as the protocols for children identified as transgender in Primary Care were written by GIDS (possibly with influence from TRA lobby groups)

NHS STANDARD CONTRACT
FOR GENDER IDENTITY DEVELOPMENT SERVICE
FOR CHILDREN AND ADOLESCENTS
Commissioner Lead Bernie Stocks
Period 1.4.2016 to 1.4.2020

A child who presents to their GP with a 'gender identity' concern is at once on a protocol designed to prioritise & recognise that children have a gender identity "which may be different to the one assigned at birth"

This specification sets out the deliverables for a highly specialised service for Gender Identity Development (GID) for children and adolescents up to their 18th birthday and is for individuals who need support around their gender identity.
The service is commissioned to provide specialist assessment, consultation and care for children and young people, including psychological support and physical treatments, to help reduce the distressing feelings of a mismatch between their natal (assigned) sex and their gender identity. The service will also provide support to the family or carers of clients.
The psychological element of the service is a Tier 4 mental health service which will support children and young people to understand their gender identity.
See here for a description of tiers of mental health care:
www.icptoolkit.org/child_and_adolescent_pathways/about_icps/camh_service_tiers.aspx
Once accepted into the service, individuals are referred to as ‘clients’.
The service will recognise a wide diversity in sexual and gender identities. It will be delivered through a highly specialist multidisciplinary team (MDT) with contributions from specialist
social workers family therapists, psychiatrists, psychologists, psychotherapists, paediatric and adolescent endocrinologists and clinical nurse practitioners." (continues)

p12 (Service objectives)
Expert advice:
To be the lead clinical service and a source of expert advice for the diagnosis and care of children and adolescents with GD within the NHS, social care and educational system.
Raised awareness and increased understanding across health, social care and educational agencies of the issues associated with GD,
thereby enabling those organisations to provide improved support locally to the individual and their family/carers and a more informed, timely and effective response in referral, assessment and treatment.

Pre-referral advice
Provide consultation advice to healthcare professionals, CAMHS, schools, colleges, voluntary sector organisations prior to referral and pre-referral
support where there is a complex presentation or when the young person, parents/family or carers are not yet ready for direct contact
with the service.

Support local services
Ensure excellent joint working and effective monitoring.
Good communication, liaison and support available to GPs, local schools, colleges, health and social care providers to support young clients with GD. Support this via appropriate literature and web-based resources including guidance for schools. (continues)

p24
3.2.5 Informed consent
The Service will recognise a wide diversity in sexual and gender identities and will affirm the importance of each person to develop autonomy in relation to treatment decisions, as well as their need for care and support from their family and the professional team. (continues)
Age alone does not determine capacity to give consent. If it is concluded that a client has sufficient autonomy and understanding of what is to be offered, plus other key eligibility and readiness criteria have been met, they can consent to treatment.
The term ‘competence’ means that a person fully understands what is proposed; can retain an understanding of the implications; can appreciate the importance of the information and see how it applies to themselves and can assess the benefits and dis-benefits of their decision.
The level of understanding that is sufficient will vary with the complexity and gravity of the decision. (continues)
www.england.nhs.uk/wp-content/uploads/2017/04/gender-development-service-children-adolescents.pdf

NB this service specification was due for review 30.12.2019

Around the 1990s everyone started getting squeamish about the word “sex” and started using “gender” as a euphemism
I can clearly remember the change. I remember that people were using the word gender because it seemed to be more appropriate. But it was more than that and I can't quite put my finger on why I would have noticed back then.
I can just clearly remember the change.

Perhaps it was because the word came in very quickly from the top down and quickly written into policy. I'm looking at you Stephen Whittle.

Even so, the word gender has proved to have such a weak and slippery dictionary definition that it should never be used in any legal document anywhere.

I went to an interesting talk recently from doctor (psychiatrist) who has seen a number of gender identity cases come through her clinic. (sorry deliberately being vague)

She was GC and giving us some interesting statistics.
One that really stuck out for me

When asked, 30% of adult people who are trans would like to have their own biological children.

When asked about treatment, fewer than 3% of trans teenagers considered whether or not they would be able to have their own biological children to be an important factor in deciding treatment.

So, as practitioners, doctors have to take that into account for them, as they do not take it into account for themselves at this age.

When I was a teenager, I didn't want children. I think that's pretty typical

It's interesting that Carmichael thinks teenagers are capable of consenting to infertility but they are unable to consent to sex or a tattoo or drink alcohol.

And thanks for the transcript.

when I was a teenager, I didn't want children. I think that's pretty typical

well yes, exactly! But we should be thinkgin ahead for them, not allowing them to make decisions based only on what they feel now

Yes exactly. Carmichael seems to think they have a crystal ball. And to be completely ignorant of the many, many sources of advice on line telling children to do it, do it, do it.

If you ever read the transgender Reddit, there are loads of posts by YP saying that they think they may be trans or aren't sure if they really are trans. They are hit by wave after wave of affirmation

I've seen several trans people wave it away quite airily. Jazz Jennings has said they can just use their sister's womb. Someone else believes that womb transplants will be freely available.

It's almost like they don't quite grasp the consequences...

Perhaps it was because the word came in very quickly from the top down and quickly written into policy. I'm looking at you Stephen Whittle.

Its more likely opportunistic.
People began using gender as a euphemism for sex.
Trans Rights activists may likely have used gender/sex confusion to push for recognition of gender identity.

from current thread discussing today's court case Stephanie Hayden vs Daily Mail et al

DuLANGMondeFOREVER wrote,
Mon 02-Mar-20 21:35:49
" en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christine_Burns

That’s interesting:

The Department of Health set up a Sexual Orientation Advisory Group (SOAG) in 2004. After lobbying from Press for Change, the Department of Health changed the name to the Sexual Orientation and Gender Identity Advisory Group (SOGIAG) to be more inclusive of trans needs and identities.

So Burns and Whittle have been trying to make ‘Gender Identity’ the official term for at least 25 years.

According to Wikipedia Burns was one of the very first people to receive a GRC, so no doubt Hayden considers Burns to be a prize witness.

www.youtube.com/watch?v=p4AP84DbIy4

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3837565-In-court-tomorrow?pg=4

Carmichael seems to think they have a crystal ball. And to be completely ignorant of the many, many sources of advice on line telling children to do it, do it, do it.

Well actually, I think the transcript shows PC is well aware of the influence of the online world, her comments about children's expertise lead VD to admit if she means via online forums and PC is quick to say that the expertise comes from in clinic info, and that the internet is not reliable. She knows full well what is happening.

She seems to be asserting that the 'specialist areas of knowledge' that children develop is because of their involvement with paediatric services, rather than the internet which she dismisses.

Yes, that's the line she's holding, because she has to. Specialist knowledge developed in three hour long sessions, mind. But it's clear she is keen to put emphasis on the clinic and distance their work from the influence of the internet. Which is unsurprising given the criticism about the influence of Mermaids etc.

Dr Polly Carmichael featured in 2016 Channel 4 documentary:

"Our children are struggling to know how to live in today’s world. Unprecedented numbers are being diagnosed with mental health disorders, medicated, or are facing a crisis of identity. For nearly a hundred years the Tavistock and Portman has been at the forefront of exploring young minds. In November 2016 Channel 4 broadcast a documentary series, with exclusive access to the Trust. The first episode focussed on the work of GIDS."
tavistockandportman.nhs.uk/about-us/kids-edge-channel-4-documentary/kids-edge-gender-clinic/

The service director's view – Dr Polly Carmichael on 'The Gender Clinic'
"I was recently reminded that it was nearly five years ago that Liesel from Century Films first approached the Gender Identity Development Service to see if we would consider taking part in a documentary. This was not the first time we had been asked and we had always concluded that it just felt too difficult and risky. We worried about young people regretting their involvement in the future, their safety, and if the process would ultimately be unhelpful. While we have always been keen to support and contribute to a better understanding of gender dysphoria, in the past we felt uncomfortable about directly involving service users" (continues)

A lot has changed in the last five years and Century Films patiently kept in touch. We were still unsure, but it was also increasingly obvious that taking part could really make a difference. It became clear that the people we should be asking were the young people and their families who attended the service. I went to our stakeholders group, which consists of adolescents attending the service, and they were unanimous in their strong view that the film should be undertaken. They wanted people to understand more about gender and their experiences. A number commented that it had been through representation on television that they had first begun to make sense of their own feelings about their gender.

So with a deep breath we agreed to take part. Our faith in the integrity of Century Films was well placed. We all feel proud to have been involved in the process and that we could not have wished for more in the way that they approached and conducted the whole process. The film has been a long time in the making." (continues)
tavistockandportman.nhs.uk/about-us/kids-edge-channel-4-documentary/kids-edge-gender-clinic/service-directors-view-dr-polly-carmichael-gender-clinic/

So Burns and Whittle have been trying to make ‘Gender Identity’ the official term for at least 25 years.

People interested in the (decades long) history of trans activism in the UK should read this important thread:

AngryAttackKittens wrote:
"I'm going to point every "but the nice, harmless old school transsexuals whose movement has been unfairly appropriated by the nasty transgender people" person to this thread from now on.

All the same elements we're seeing now were there in that old BBC roundtable from the 70s with the 4 transwomen, the politician, and the doctor. None of this is new."

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3463920-Lets-go-back-to-2007

People need to look beyond Polly Carmichael to the work & influence of the founder of GIDS, Domenico Di Ceglie:

"The GIDS was founded in 1989 and is one of the longest standing services for gender diverse children and young people in the world. Domenico Di Ceglie, who founded the service, wrote a set of therapeutic aims which we still abide by today. This includes the unconditional acceptance and respect for young people’s gender identity."
gids.nhs.uk/node

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3509817-Times-16-2-1-9-Staff-at-trans-clinic-fear-damage-to-children

Just as they should look beyond Susie Green /Mermaids to the work & influence of The Beaumont Society, Press For Change & GIRES.

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3188145-anyone-know-the-gender-identity-research-education-society-gires

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3322310-gires-school-resources

GIDS founder: Dr Domenico DiCeglie
Lifetime Honorary Consultant Child and Adolescent Psychiatrist

"You founded the Gender Identity Development Service. What gave you the idea to do so?

I was inspired to start the Gender Identity Development Service in 1989 by an encounter with a teenager, who was assigned female at birth, who perceived himself to be male. I saw him for exploratory psychotherapy in the mid-80s following three overdoses. In one of the sessions he wondered why his parents had not understood his situation when he was a child and sought professional help and support. This started my thinking about setting up a specialist service for this group of young people, but at the time I would never have imagined the developments which followed."

gids.nhs.uk/who-we-are/domenico-diceglie

from thread below,
kesstrel wrote:
"I've just looked up Domenico di Ceglie. OMG. He was a Freudian, developing his ideas in the 1990s. The third paper down (Castaway;s Corner) gives some insight into the processes by which he developed his ideas:

scholar.google.co.uk/scholar?hl=en&as_sdt=0%2C5&q=Domenico+Di+Ceglie&btnG=

I was already wondering earlier today if one reason why the physical intervention model was developed would be because Freudian psychoanalytic therapy didn't work (which of course it wouldn't), and at that point better therapies of the CBT type hadn't yet been accepted as better..."
(extract in screenshot)

thread:
www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3413518-Observer-articles-on-fast-tracking-at-the-Tavistock-clinic

Non verbal expression of gender identity eh? What did his patient do then? Manspread?