Gender neutral toilets - small wins

[Changingnameloo]

NC as likely to be outing!

I work in a university, and heard of two separate decisions regarding gender neutral toilets that have made me very happy. Lots of central buildings have gender neutral toilets, mainly done well/safe for women.

However, two buildings are currently being refurbished, so the issue of gender neutral toilets has been raised.

Building 1 had traditional M/F separate toilets with cubicles, plus two separate toilets that are currently M/F, but suitable for gender neutral toilets (no gaps around doors, sinks in the cubicle, waiting space in a public corridor). Proposal was to have M/F toilets and two GN toilets (I supported this, safe space for everyone) massively argued against by LBGT+ rep who wanted the F toilets to be GN. The M/F toilets will remain separated according to sex and there will be two GN toilets that are still safe for women.

Building 2 there was a proposal that all the toilets should be gender neutral, but the people in the building refused, and they won. All will be separated by sex - GN toilets in the adjoining building, so safe options for all.

Small wins to keep women safe and comfortable, but in a university, it feels like a big win!

This is good news, safe and appropriate space for everyone.

Hey that's great news!! Sanity has prevailed.

massively argued against by LBGT+ rep who wanted the F toilets to be GN
This is definitely a pattern I keep reading about. Can any pro-gender identity folks explain why this obsession to remove female facilities seems to be the norm?

I’m going to continue my campaign to abolish the term “gender neutral”. Instead everyone should say and write “mixed sex”. I think the term gender neutral is designed to make it sound like a benign idea. Using mixed sex emphasises what is actually happening.

On the one hand, yay, celebrations. On the other hand - have we been so badly ground down that we celebrate retaining our bloody basic women’s rights to privacy, safety and dignity, that should have been put beyond debate decades ago?

I have no problem with gender neutral toilets that are complete little cubicles in their own right.
My only thought is the increased cost of putting sanitary bins in every cubicle.

They have thought about that, haven’t they?

Totally agree that it is sad to feel that this is a win - but given the treatment of GC female academics, I’m pleased that a sensible solution for all will happen.

Also agree that mixed sex would be more appropriate, but think that would be a far bigger battle!

Yes, the budget has been increased for the extra sanitary bin.

Congratulations! Are we becoming braver about saying no?

Yes WomanBornNotWorn I think women (and many men) are becoming braver in speaking out about the removal of women's rights.

For the last several days I've been waging a personal campaign, on another forum I post on ( an almost totally male dominated architecture/urbanism forum - but which has a 'general chat/ other issues' section).

I've realised, recently, that we need to be waging a very considered campaign which seeks not only to defend and protect single sex provisions, but which shows compassion towards trans people who also want to feel comfortable ( I know much of it is about validation - but you do have to show willing). to that end I've been plugging away on third spaces, with some success and quite a bit of support.

A few predictable posters have tried to report me and have me banned etc ( interestingly all of them young gay men) -but i've had considerable support from others. People, when given full awareness, information and knowledge of the issues - see 'third spaces' as entirely reasonable and a valid thing to campaign for.

I have top keep coming back to "Why don't you channel your energy into campaigning for third spaces, so that everyone can feel comfortable and safe?" The usual response to that is something about 'othering'.........but they all know at heart that this is a reasonable solution to everyone's needs. It is not up to women and girls to give up their spaces, against their own feelings, in order to cater to another quite distinctive group of people.

My only thought is the increased cost of putting sanitary bins in every cubicle.

If the sensible model of mostly single sex with a few mixed sex, it's only the ones in the latter group which had been mens before which need this modest upgrade.

JustAThought

You might want to show them the petition for third spaces by some transwomen. MN rules preclude me linking to it but if you go to the Petitions and activism board it's easy to find, titled 'Petition for third spaces - Fionne & Miranda'

And others reading this thread who didn't know it was gathering tumbleweed there might like to sign it.

I wonder why the men’s is never taken over for unisex? Why is that?

Oh, ‘urinals’ you say - but don’t they argue that women can have a penis too?

You might want to show them the petition for third spaces by some transwomen

I did link to Miranda Yardley's blog - on that page.

It's tough going on that forum on this issue - and I have come up against consistent hostility from a few. They are simply not interested in women's issues or how women might be impacted - it's all about the rights and feelings of their lovely trans friends. But 'third spaces' is a suggestion that most others can rally around.

Small wins, congratulations on your success. Third spaces are eminently reasonable to anyone of good faith. However...
www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-8058499/Gender-neutral-toilets-not-cause-controversy-France-says-senior-judge.html#comments
Still a long way to go.

Small wins, congratulations on your success. Third spaces are eminently reasonable to anyone of good faith. However...
www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-8058499/Gender-neutral-toilets-not-cause-controversy-France-says-senior-judge.html#comments
Still a long way to go

Yes, my local Lib Dem councillors always use 'the French example' when justifying their campaign gender neutral toilets.......I then mention the high number of women in France who have experienced sexual assault in public spaces......and then there is that great photo which shows women, in France, queuing to use a single sex loo - when the adjoining gender neutral one is virtually empty:

Shame the words "disabled" or "accessible" don't appear anywhere in this thread.

Shame the words "disabled" or "accessible" don't appear anywhere in this thread

That is because the thread was specifically about gender neutral toilets/single sex toilets. Most people are aware of the issue around disability toilets, and in fact they were mentioned in the Lords this week by Tanni Grey Thompson.

What would you like to see in regard to disability provision as it relates gender neutral/single sex provision?

It is not up to women and girls to give up their spaces, against their own feelings, in order to cater to another quite distinctive group of people.

absolutely

Question for architects but is there an inherent sense of balance that means that men’s women’s and equal number of Lois and also that a third space is hard to place within a design? Thinking of so many buildings that ‘twin’ spaces/functions as it makes design nicely symmetrical

Loos, not Lois

Lanadelgrey, there is still symmetry, if that’s so important. You have women’s loos and disabled loos on one side and men’s loos and third space loos on the other side. There are fewer trans people than disabled people, so you only need the same number of cubicles for them at most.

I work in a university too; advice please on how to tackle two examples seen this week, where a laminated sign 'GENDER NEUTRAL TOILET' has simply been put up over the 'female' sign!
Suddenly toilets with cublcles, spaces top and bottom, are being converted at my institution.
I can complain about this - sorry to rehash information I know is elsewhere - but I assume I'm on solid ground complaining along the lines of the cubicles being unsuitable?
You can tell me off if I should have looked harder for that info elsewhere, sorry!

I think NotBadConsidering made a great point about the term mixed sex being better. The language we use shapes how we think and when our ideological opponents control the terminology, they steer the debate in a particular direction, as shown with the terms trans woman and of course assigned at birth etc.

One of the problems with the term "gender neutral" is that it tends to imply that the men's and women's toilets are divided according to gender identity, not according to sex.

@cactus2020 you need to quote building regulations at them.
And the equality act 2010.

Take those signs down cactus, if some ones just stuck them up. Shove them in the bin.