Gender neutral toilets - small wins

[Changingnameloo]

NC as likely to be outing!

I work in a university, and heard of two separate decisions regarding gender neutral toilets that have made me very happy. Lots of central buildings have gender neutral toilets, mainly done well/safe for women.

However, two buildings are currently being refurbished, so the issue of gender neutral toilets has been raised.

Building 1 had traditional M/F separate toilets with cubicles, plus two separate toilets that are currently M/F, but suitable for gender neutral toilets (no gaps around doors, sinks in the cubicle, waiting space in a public corridor). Proposal was to have M/F toilets and two GN toilets (I supported this, safe space for everyone) massively argued against by LBGT+ rep who wanted the F toilets to be GN. The M/F toilets will remain separated according to sex and there will be two GN toilets that are still safe for women.

Building 2 there was a proposal that all the toilets should be gender neutral, but the people in the building refused, and they won. All will be separated by sex - GN toilets in the adjoining building, so safe options for all.

Small wins to keep women safe and comfortable, but in a university, it feels like a big win!

Take those signs down cactus, if some ones just stuck them up. Shove them in the bin

I did this recently. They replaced them a couple of times and then gave up.

Women's place UK have made a helpful guide for anyone wanting to challenge mixed sex toilet facilities.

womansplaceuk.org/2020/02/29/women-have-right-single-sex-toilets/

Can any pro-gender identity folks explain why this obsession to remove female facilities seems to be the norm?

I think the main point, for many men, of using women’s facilities is the thrill of breaking boundaries, invading women’s space. For many more it’s about forcing women to validate their fantasy. For these men, a third space would be pointless. But as you can tell, I’m not pro-gender identity.

If your employer is neither providing single sex toileting NOR floor to ceiling enclosed fully independent lockable rooms with everything you need in there, then they aren’t acting with the law, see here:

‘where possible, separate facilities for men and women – failing that, rooms with lockable doors’

(See more: www.hse.gov.uk/simple-health-safety/workplace-facilities/health-safety.htm)

You can report them anonymously if you need to, to the health and safety executive who will investigate for you - they are the relevant enforcement authority for some offices and workplaces esp if you work in an NHS or some public sector organisations:

www.hse.gov.uk/contact/concerns.htm

Other workplaces come under local government to investigate or different authorities: you can check which is relevant to your workplace here:

www.hse.gov.uk/contact/authority.htm

Gender is just a feeling of ‘femininity’ or ‘masculinity’ - a feeling or perception related to (what many people consider outdated) sex role stereotypes.

So it is important for employers to remember that toilets that are single-sex are already ‘gender neutral’ - because any employee is a already perfectly free to express their own feelings of masculinity or femininity as they see fit when they are using the workplace toilet appropriate to their sex.
None of this changes the fact that women have important, evidenced reasons of safety, privacy and dignity to need to be separate from men when toileting.

toilets that are single-sex arealready‘gender neutral’ - because any employee is a already perfectly free to express their own feelings of masculinity or femininity as they see fit when they are using the workplace toilet appropriate to their sex.

Brilliant! Thanks, @ChattyLion However, I couldn't get the first HSE link to work.

I work in a university too; advice please on how to tackle two examples seen this week, where a laminated sign 'GENDER NEUTRAL TOILET' has simply been put up over the 'female' sign!

I mean.. if there's no cameras, I think I'd consider either moving it to the mens, or making another one for the mens. Taking it down will just get it replaced, but inconveniencing men gets shit done.

Sorry about that- trying again
www.hse.gov.uk/simple-health-safety/workplace-facilities/health-safety.htm

Well, my thread ( on another forum) did not last long, even though it was perfectly civil and informative. A small clique succeeded in having it closed. And not even by the one trans person that was in conversation with me......but a small group of unpleasant 'allies' who could do nothing other than name call. All young gay men.

anyway, it still exists and can be read - and in that short time ( several days) it was operative I managed to educate a few people around the GRA and the proposals to change it - and received strong support from a number ( almost exclusively a male forum).

OOh yes, that's another guerilla action then - make an identical looking sign to replace it, but with 'MIXED SEX' rather than gender neutral.

Actually this link may be the most useful anyway as it is more specific

www.hse.gov.uk/pubns/indg244.pdf

Sanitary conveniences and washing facilities

Suitable and sufficient sanitary conveniences and washing facilities should be provided at readily accessible places. They and the rooms containing them should be kept clean and be adequately ventilated and lit. Washing facilities should have running hot and cold or warm water, soap and clean towels or other means of cleaning or drying. If required by the type of work, showers should also be provided. Men and women should have separate facilities unless each facility is in a separate room with a lockable door and is for use by only one person at a time.

Also it may help to illustrate with a list of instances why women might need space without men in their toilets for.

Lots of examples from women on this thread about that, several important examples of which male-bodied people will never do and anyone with any sense will understand that we should not be having to be near men to do these things

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3203454-What-do-you-use-the-womens-toilets-for

Also if you search MN for gender neutral toilets there are lots of threads about how those don’t work for women at all. Men piss leaving the door open for women to see their cocks, they piss all over the place and don’t clear up after etc. Lots of women don’t feel they are safe or clean or private enough.

Employers have duties around these things.
If they want to be woke that doesn’t mean they can just decide not to comply with the law.

I don’t know what the fuss is about. Because things like this - www.wbtv.com/2020/02/29/wis-student-arrested-after-allegedly-showing-genitals-child-gender-neutral-bathroom/ just do not ever ever happen (and if they do it’s ‘only females’ who get hurt - but just think of the delicate male ego that could get bruised!)

Useful Dominic Lawson article in today's Mail mol.im/a/8063779

Changing rooms as well as toilets, but this story made me wonder how carefully complaints are filed, or records kept:
www.glasgowtimes.co.uk/news/17675804.campaigners-astonished-at-lack-of-complaints-over-glasgow-life-trans-policy/

The leisure organisation Glasgow Life reports that there have been no complaints at all about men being allowed into women's facilities, under self-ID.

Unless you read to the end, when someone from one of the non-trans Scottish women's groups says "We know for a fact there have been several complaints about the policy".

And the readers' comments - "Indeed! Didn't Glasgow Life say when this issue was first raised that the complainers would be 'informed' by staff why the policy was necessary or a Hate Crime would be reported? Not surprising their are no complaints, women don't want to end up in court."

And from a woman, who wrote and complained about the toilets: "I got a reply from Glasgow Life where the woman told me in the letter that they'd received several complaints about it, so they were taking all comments into account. Where did they all go? Even if she made up the other complaints, my complaint is not zero."

Maybe women just didn’t want to give their identifiying details so left name blank and these were just binned?

Maybe women just didn’t want to give their identifiying details so left name blank and these were just binned?

That does seem likely, Lordfrontpaw. But it doesn't account for all the complaints: the woman who wrote a letter and received a written reply, for example, or the complaints received by ForWomen.Scot -- which, unlike the mainstream government-funded women's organisations, doesn't support men self-IDing into women-only facilities.

Thanks, @ChattyLion !

When I've been in France toilets haven't been mixed sex :/ I mean outside of places where there is 1, same as here

massively argued against by LBGT+ rep who wanted the F toilets to be GN.

Strange that. It's like they knew men would kick up a stink if male spaces were challenged.

I work in a university too; advice please on how to tackle two examples seen this week, where a laminated sign 'GENDER NEUTRAL TOILET' has simply been put up over the 'female' sign!Suddenly toilets with cublcles, spaces top and bottom, are being converted at my institution.I can complain about this - sorry to rehash information I know is elsewhere - but I assume I'm on solid ground complaining along the lines of the cubicles being unsuitable?

The law you need to quote is The Workplace (Health, Safety, and Welfare) Regulations 1992 Provision 20. 2c says that loos must be single-sex or single-occupant, and 1 says there must be plenty of them, they can't just have a single two-cubicle women's loo for hundreds of women and put it in the basement of a multiple floor building with all the other loos being men's or mixed-sex multiple-occupant.

The Equality Act 2010 is also your friend because it's generally illegal to provide a facility for men, such as single-sex loos, without providing an equivalent facility for women. The EA also provides a legal definition of woman as "a female of any age" and man as "a male of any age", which is useful to counter any less accurate attempts to define woman that you may face.

a laminated sign 'GENDER NEUTRAL TOILET' has simply been put up over the 'female' sign!

This may be a guerilla action by students. Show the sign to the building manager or department manager (not the same as department head, I mean the top admin person) and explain that unisex cubicle loos don't meet the WHSWR1992 requirements for staff use and that providing men's loos without corresponding women's loos may constitute unlawful sex discrimination under EA2010.

Suddenly toilets with cublcles, spaces top and bottom, are being converted at my institution.

This is trickier if these conversions are being done formally with the approval of senior management. The route to take here may be via HR and any equality/diversity/inclusivity rep you have. Again, you remind them of their legal obligations to provide single-sex or self-contained loos and to consider the impact of building works on all nine of the protected characteristics in EA2010, e.g. religion and belief, disability, and sex. For example, Orthodox Jews don't acknowledge gender reassignment as changing sex, so a transwoman remains a man in the religious opinion of almost all Orthodox rabbis. Orthodox jewish women, like many Muslimas, are subject to strict rules of modesty around unrelated men, so need single-sex loos in order to have jobs and exist outside the home.