Women have bodily autonomy wrt their reproductive system. Trans people want that.

[ArranUpsideDown]

Spotted in a Twitter Morning Star comment thread.

Makes a lot of sense of some of the rights arguments that are being used. And interesting wrt recent blurring that has led to accusations of *phobia relating to sexual orientation (or the notion of having one).

You know how you (rightfully) demand women have bodily autonomy in regards to their reproductive system? Trans people also want that.

twitter.com/FakeEstrusFlask/status/1233670013741158404?s=20

Rather interesting development which is a logical creep from previous positions. No need for any interventions at all and certainly not beyond the cosmetic. If it's accepted as a political or liberation notion then self-ID flows from that.

Trans people do have the same rights to bodily autonomy as everyone else though.

You know how you (rightfully) demand women have bodily autonomy in regards to their reproductive system? Trans people also want that

Trans people wanting bodily autonomy in regards to women's reproductive system is where I say stop.

And also - women don't have bodily autonomy. A woman can't go and demand a hysterectomy or breast reduction. Even a woman with years of back pain and reduced quality of life would struggle to get a breast reduction on the NHS. Women who have never wanted children, or who have completed their family and are struggling with heavy painful periods that have affected their quality of life for years will still have to fight for a hysterectomy on the NHS. And don't start me on birth injuries and group physiotherapy! Where's the autonomy there?

That tweet makes no sense whatsoever. She's obviously never been a middle-aged woman trying to get gynae treatment. I've been shocked by how easily transmen get operations that are normally restricted for other women.

If the trans person in question is an adult they can do what they like with their own body as far as I'm concerned, they just don't get to have access to anyone else's body without their permission.

(To be clear, this includes viewing only access)

The trans person in question seems to live their life in a fantasy world of sci fi and gaming. No signs of having a life or friends on their twitter. Is sad. Better mental health care is needed for people.

I don't understand what bodily autonomy a transwomen or transmen doesn't already have, though? The comment about uteri is weird: could this be uterus envy like women have been told they have penis envy for about 100+ years now?

Nobody has a right to a uterus, especially not a working one - it's just not in anyone's gift. You have one or you haven't; it works or it doesn't.

What am I missing here?

The twitter thread seems to be unavailable but I'm not sure I want to know what the twitter handle 'FakeEstrusFlask' is about. too much to hope it's a parody account?

I accept the facts above - nonetheless since when has this been a fact-based discussion for one side?

As long as an emotive argument can be made it seems to weaken the resolve of other groups. Are there are many who would never think to ask for the next ten words of what "bodily autonomy in regards to their reproductive system" mean for women. Nor what the wider implications would be. But everybody would sense that it means more oppression for one group and necessitate even more kindness .

We are very far down the track from dysphoria leading to a need for re-assignment surgery in many ways. To me, this leads to a logical position where a group of people opt for legal status as one sex while being fully supported in retaining the sex characteristics of the other binary sex.

I have a feeling this would be more useful for trans women than trans men (in many ways). It's certainly an interesting restructuring of Sheila Jeffrey's sex castes.

Errol it refers to a thing in a video game called Dark Souls. This person is obsessed with not real life.

The fact that you are at the mercy of your reproductive system is one of the central truths of being a woman: the pain, the hormones, male attention, pregnancy and its aftermath, ending with the hot flushes and menopause shit. Autonomy, hah!

What bodily autonomy do females happy to call themselves females have that others don't? How does any society group have better or different rights over this?

Females don't have unconditional bodily autonomy as pps say.

If this is about wanting access to a reproductive system not provided by your chromomosomes…. well some things are tough. Crying for the moon is something you needed to learn to get over before puberty, and a good therapist is probably the best option. Disabled people don't get to demand access to other people's legs or hands or health, you have the body and reproductive system you've got. You're not deprived in any way.

If this is a bid that children should be able to control their reproductive systems by hysterectomy/penectomy etc, then no. Same restrictions as all other kids, no unnecessary surgery that ends in loss of function, kids can't possibly weigh that up and know how they'll feel as an adult.

All adults are equally free to do whatever the heck they want to their reproductive system and body to their cosmetic satisfaction within the constraints of the NHS - which does medically essential stuff only - or via private self funded surgery.

This makes no sense.

If this is a bid that children should be able to control their reproductive systems by hysterectomy/penectomy etc, then no. Same restrictions as all other kids, no unnecessary surgery that ends in loss of function, kids can't possibly weigh that up and know how they'll feel as an adult.

Also an argument playing out on Twitter with Mermaids objecting to the judicial review and Adrian Harrop's usual contribution:

there‘s no logical or legitimate argument for claiming that trans-affirmative care is of any greater consequence, or any more “irreversible” than an abortion, to which young people are able to consent under the principle of Gillick competence.

twitter.com/AdrianHarrop/status/1233487420399771650?s=20

The bodily autonomy also feels like a callback to Veronica Ivy's early argument that compulsory hormones are unethical and that sporting associations have no right to mandate suppressed hormone levels for competitions.

I don't agree with these arguments - I find it interesting that they're in play and a logical extension to some recent shifts.

Good job no judge in his right mind will take the slightest bit of notice of Harrop.

Slightly annoyed that yet again I've been sucked into trying to understand .

It's like trying to leave a bad relationship where you find yourself constantly trying to work out the reasons for why their behaviour is strange, trying to make sense of what they say, trying to get a grasp on the situation - and expending vast amounts of mental energy running around focused on them and the wonder and complexity of them, because you have this vain, forlorn hope, that if you just try hard enough you might be able to repair this relationship. That relationship that the other person is taking no responsibility for, and is behaving like a selfish, narcissistic arse.

Must do more chanting of LTB.

That young person on twitter has a poor grasp of reality all round. To me it shows how vulnerable young people who don't feel like they fit in are susceptible to cults. I don't blame the kids, I blame the cult leaders.

And I blame sane adults who turn a blind eye to the cults for the sake of an easy life.

Wait, is this the AFTH "we demand the right to do surgery on ourselves and each other because we're going to shut down the gender clinics" thing again?

No, I think it is we demand to have any bits cut off immediately upon demand, paid for by someone else, without question

Railing against suggestions that maybe it is the wrong path, like a bulimic furious at the pharmacist questioning the purchase of laxatives.

Not RTFT

that has to be a piss take, right?

Women really struggle to get sterilised on NHS. Women have control over reproductive stuff... Erm abortion has to be signed off by 2 docs otherwise is a criminal act, it's not actually 'choice' there is supposed to be a medical reason, there are limits, and those limits are constantly under attack.

Loads of issues around LTC too long to go into here.

Vaginal mesh scandal, women told they were imagining issues etc

Loads of issues around how we are treated wrt pregnancy, birth, including mental health and injury.

Etc etc

That's in the uk, around the world things really get dismal.

The person tweeting that is either joking or has literally no idea of any of the issues women and girls have around reproductive health. Which tbh is not a surprise.

The insistence against all evidence to the contrary that women and girls get whatever they want is also a key MRA idea.

Adrian harrop doesn't think that being forced to bear a child when you are a child is much of a big deal wtf

Why do the magic-thinkers on twatter have such monumentally shit avatars?

Oh lol on AH thread, person saying GC women are anti abortion

The person tweeting that is either joking or has literally no idea of any of the issues women and girls have around reproductive health. Which tbh is not a surprise.

I'd guess the latter - someone who neither knows nor cares about the reality of being female.

Eight years of periods so heavy I had to have iron/vit injections to make up the loss and so painful I couldn’t sit down. Six operations that ‘would sort it all out’ but didn’t. Finally hysterectomy privately. That’s my experience of bodily autonomy, anyone who wants that is very welcome to it. 😡