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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

House of Lords- Women Spaces Hurrah

90 replies

Harshmallow01 · 25/02/2020 15:54

hansard.parliament.uk/Lords/2020-02-24/debates/D9459D1B-FADF-4765-AB3F-F55D4B322060/details#contribution-2670DB0F-6187-447E-AAC2-492C68088654

OP posts:
OldCrone · 25/02/2020 22:04

Sal Britton certainly has done her homework on female paedophiles

But has quoted somewhat selectively on what she's read.

Some excerpts from the Telegraph article she mentions.
www.telegraph.co.uk/women/womens-life/11899484/Female-paedophiles-Why-women-sexually-abuse-children.html

“We do know there are women who are motivated by sexual interest in children but they are only a tiny proportion of female sex offenders,” she explains. “Most women are motivated by an intimacy need. They want to feel close to someone.”

Some of those women will choose an adolescent victim – such as recent cases of teachers having sex with teenage boys and grooming them. “These women are more into the idea of a relationship,” explains Cortoni. “They just choose an adolescent instead of an adult partner because they’re less threatening, and they can be in charge.”

Another key difference between male and female sex offenders is that a third of women do it alongside someone else – typically a male partner.

This is a common feature in the most high-profile cases of female offenders, such as Rosemary West, who helped her husband Fred to rape, torture and murder children and women, and Myra Hindley, who murdered and sexually assaulted five children alongside Ian Brady.

Sal Brinton mentions Marie Black and Carol Stadler. The Telegraph says of Black:

It’s also a crucial part in the Black case, where her two former partners were part of the sex abuse ring.

Cortoni says: “There’s definitely a very tiny indication that for some of these women, it’s because they’ve been coerced. That doesn’t mean physical violence. It could be very much emotional or psychological. They’re akin to women who are victims of domestic violence.”

This was part of Black’s defence from her lawyers, who said she had suffered domestic violence at the hands of Adams and that he “was a very manipulative” man who exploited her. But barristers representing Adams and Rogers rejected this notion saying: “She is the common denominator between all the offences.”

She also omits to mention that as well as Black, two men were found guilty of multiple counts of rape and other sexual offences (Adams and Rogers, mentioned above), and Carol Stadler was found guilty of assault but was acquitted of all sexual offences (I'm not trying to minimise her offences, as she was obviously part of the group of abusers, but she is a poor example to use as a 'female paedophile').

www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/crime/woman-at-centre-of-paedophile-ring-that-made-children-sexual-play-things-guilty-of-23-offences-10419867.html

If Sal Brinton is so convinced that there are hordes of female paedophiles just waiting in the ladies toilet to pounce on unsuspecting children, I'd have thought she could have come up with a better example than Marie Black and Carol Stadler.

Her other example of a female paedophile is the 'looking for a relationship with a teenager' type mentioned in the Telegraph article.

R0wantrees · 25/02/2020 22:09

One has to wonder who is providing leading LibDem women with their research.
Or why if theyre doing it themself, its not been scrutinised better.

lakeswimmer · 25/02/2020 22:13

July 2018 at Fawcett Society hosted event 'Tell Her to Stand" intended to address the sex disparity in politics. Sal Brinton said of the aim for 50/50 representation she would be happy if this was 50% male & 50% transwomen!

R0wantrees I remember that at the time - it's absolutely ludicrous - I think I'd already given up on the LDs by then but it was another nail in the coffin!

mindtheclegs · 25/02/2020 22:24

@Babdoc (tagging as I did want to make this point)

I think raising concerns about disabled toilets in this debate is completely valid.

  1. the Lord said he'd tried to raise it in the HoL before, twice, but it had fallen on deaf ears. No surprise and complete sympathy for he using this debate to put his thoughts forward

  2. Muslim women are being told to use disabled toilets if they feel uncomfortable about using gender-neutral or female toilets which allow transwomen (GRC-ed of self-IDed)

  3. the loud clamour for trans' space for dignity and privacy has been given more thought in the last 5 years that it has for disabled people in the last 50 (my guess on those stats)

So rightful they have a voice

R0wantrees · 25/02/2020 22:27

February 2019 Lynn Featherstone & Brian Paddick (also LibDems in the House of Lords)

Dan Fisher article Conatus News:
(extract)
"The party which took in Aimee Challenor after the Greens decided to investigate their actions have doubled down on embracing the pseudoscience which has caused so many to ignore the erosion of women’s rights and safety.

Lynne Featherstone in her statement conflates victories for gay rights with the push to allow self identification of gender, without “bureaucratic hurdles” as she calls them. She declares that it is our duty to fight “for trans people to be […] welcomed into all spaces”. Far from being her own personal opinion, she claims that the entire Liberal Democrats party are fighting for this cause.

She goes on to include in this the demand that all official documents include an X option “for those who do not wish to identify as male or female”. It is disappointing that someone campaigning so heavily to change the laws on gender identity is unable to distinguish between the genders of man and woman, which involve an element of identity, and the biological sexes of male and female, which are nothing more than material reality. This confusion is shared by the Liberal Democrats life peer, Brian Paddick.

Males are not going to be allowed into female only spaces as a result of proposed changes to the GRA. And what female only spaces are public spaces necessary for women to participate in public life?— Brian Paddick 🇬🇧👨‍❤️‍👨🇳🇴 (@brianpaddick) July 2, 2018

Lynne Featherstone concludes her statement with a message to those who seek to preserve female-only spaces: “You are not feminists. Your views are not welcome in the Liberal Democrats.”(continues)

conatusnews.com/liberal-democrats-views-not-welcome/

Voice0fReason · 25/02/2020 22:35

It was a very interesting debate with some very powerful contributions from Lord Lucas and Tanni.
It's a shame there was some nonsense in there as well but I'm glad there was a civilised discussion about the issue.

andyoldlabour · 25/02/2020 22:39

I am really pleased that this has happened, really hopeful, that once again women's spaces can become "sacred" (hate to use that because I am not religious).
However, as Churchill once said -

"This is not the end, it isn't the beginning of the end, but it may be the end of the beginning"

Ameanstreakamilewide · 25/02/2020 22:48

I've got a rather big crush on His Lordship now!

I think it was the utter beauty of the kimono and baseball bat comment.

It's a good day.

midwestspring · 25/02/2020 23:28

I've stood for election for the Lib Dems in the past when asked (council elections) they are unsafe on this issue.
As someone with a child protection career and I very clear on this. ( and unable to say anything in public)

WomanBornNotWorn · 26/02/2020 01:05

Largely excellent debate.

wellbehavedwomen · 26/02/2020 01:38

Wow. That was amazing. I could hardly believe what I was reading - legislators, expressing awareness that women are human, and have needs and rights, too.

Things are really, really starting to move.

NotBadConsidering · 26/02/2020 02:18

Can we ban the term “gender neutral” on here? It’s mixed sex, not gender neutral. The word neutral suggests a benign, benevolent approach. Mixed sex tells it like it is: putting males and females together in opposition to the reasons we have single sex/sex segregation in the first place.

justcly · 26/02/2020 06:56

Ameanstreakamilewide:

He is crushable. I've got to stop calling him "Lord Lucan".

ChateauMargaux · 26/02/2020 08:04

Baroness Brinton called for an analysis of the statistics if crimes in toilets segregated by gender. I hope someone points out to her that the analysis needs to be by sex, not gender!!

Ameanstreakamilewide · 26/02/2020 08:10

just - I know what you mean! It does trip off the tongue, somewhat.

And i saw T G-T a wee while ago, in Southwark station and i was too shy to say hello.
I never fan-girl over celebrities, but I would have been utterly tongue tied and made a proper tit of myself. Confused
So I just admired her from afar.

ArranUpsideDown · 26/02/2020 12:35

Helen Lewis posted this from Tanni Grey Thompson - very courageous discussion of her incontinence etc.:

House of Lords- Women Spaces Hurrah
Thinkingabout1t · 26/02/2020 15:50

For anyone who hasn’t had time to read the Hansard report, these are my notes about the transgender issue, from reading it online (thanks for link above).

Baron Lucas, Tory, pro-women: “Stonewall should put away its kimono and baseball bat and settle down to the idea that maybe it needs to modify its rather extreme views. The Fawcett Society should listen to its founder and the quote that is on the statue in Parliament Square, ‘Courage calls to courage everywhere’, and get involved in the discussion in a serious way.”

Baroness Brinton LD, pro-trans: either dishonest or just accepting TRA propaganda, ie women can be paedophiles too, asks for figures on who attacks whom in changin rooms (widely available - men attack somen) and says: “there is considerable evidence that LGBT people, especially transpeople, are more likely to be attacked, more likely to suffer abuse and hate crime and more likely to be at risk of suicide because of the pressure”.

Baron Blencathra Tory, pro-women: “ My blunt message to the Government tonight is this: when will you stand up to the small, militant, transgender fascist lobby and say that the rights of 32 million real women and 800,000 wheelchair users are more important than the rights of tens of thousands who identify as transgender?”

Baroness Greengross, Cross-bench - sensible points about incontinence; didn’t touch on TR issue.

Baroness Nicholson, Tory, pro-women. NHS has misunderstood EA2010, and “A man could wear a frock, rouge and nail gel every day of the week for 10 years without qualifying for the protected characteristic of gender reassignment according to the Equality Act 2010.”

Baroness (Tanni) Grey-Thompson, pro women. “I have been involved in elite sport for the last 40 years, and we have seen that a small number of horrible individuals will use their position to get close to children, women and boys. That is why we need to have protections in place. There is a reason that the UN, WaterAid and other organisations have called for single-sex spaces. Social convention is there to safeguard women and girls to prevent harm. Eroding social convention will make it harder to maintain these boundaries.”

Baroness Barker LD, pro-trans, claims that TW have the right to use women’s loos, without making clear that isn’t supposed to include those who self-identify, which i believe is the vast majority: “We are proposing to take away from trans women a right that they already have: trans women use women’s toilets all the time”. She ignores the fact that TW offend at the same rate as other men: “Andrew Gilligan when he was a Times journalist ... made a rather crude FOI request about different types of crimes, and he concluded that it is men whom women should fear: it is not trans women who are the perpetrators of the crimes against them.”

Baron Kennedy, Lab Co-op, pro-trans in a please-be-nice way: “This is not about satisfying an aggressive, militant lobby, but about ensuring that we are all treated with respect.”

Baroness Bloomfield, Tory “The [Equality] Act is clear that trans people should be treated according to the gender they present” (surely she is wrong, since this suggests self-ID is already legal?) “although it also states that transgender people can be excluded from single-sex places if it is proportionate. However, it is for providers to determine this on a case-by-case basis. The protected characteristic of gender reassignment encompasses people who are intending to, are undergoing or have undergone gender transition. This does not require any medical intervention to have occurred.”
To me, that last part shows how foolishly the EA was worded, since no one knows what anyone else is “intending”. But I still don’t think the EA says “trans people should be treated according to the gender they present“.

Thinkingabout1t · 26/02/2020 16:12

Striking that all the Tories except Bloomfield took a strong pro-women stance.
Bloomfield I think was trying to be even-handed, as she also said “We have heard some people’s concerns that progressing the rights of transgender people should not have a detrimental effect on the rights of others, especially women. We are committed to maintaining the safeguards that protect vulnerable women and allow organisations to provide single-sex services. The law makes it clear that separate male or female services exist for a reason: to provide gender-appropriate services.”

Cross-bencher Tanni Grey-Thompson was superb, as always.

The Lib Dem women seem to have just swallowed Stonewall propaganda whole and continue to regurgitate bits without ever checking the facts, which have now been made widely available.

The one Labour voice was feeble “be nice” waffle.

It shouldn’t be like this.

endofthelinefinally · 26/02/2020 16:27

Surely there must be rules about dishonesty in debates in HOL?

TheABC · 26/02/2020 17:14

It's a start. I am glad that the lack of disabled provision was raised: long overdue for improvement.

MrsSnippyPants · 26/02/2020 17:33

He is asking for help again, this time in particular reference to school toilets:
twitter.com/LordLucasCD/status/1232665635236261889?s=20

MsTSwift · 26/02/2020 17:38

Oh god does this mean I am now a Tory?

magicrainbowbeans · 26/02/2020 17:39

"Oh god does this mean I am now a Tory?"

For the first time in my life, I am leaning in that direction. And I never would have predicted that.

Lordfrontpaw · 26/02/2020 18:00

I think labour have got further and further towards the student politics end of the spectrum - even when I was a student I would have thought this lot to be a bit naive, unrealistic and reactionary.

Dad was involved in the local party and they would have just hated/resented him now - educated, well off - he would have been one of the ‘eat the rich’ targets I suppose. He was born on the arse end of Glasgow, went to uni, worked his arse off and set up his own business. A lot of the group were the town ‘professionals’ who wanted a fair society.

ErrolTheDragon · 26/02/2020 18:01

It may simply mean that you're a conservative, when what is under threat of not being conserved includes women's rights, safeguarding of children etc.

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