More police victim blaming - advice on how to not get raped

[Cwenthryth]

Belfast police at it this time:

thetab.com/uk/belfast/2020/02/21/police-in-belfast-handing-out-flyers-recommending-drinking-less-to-avoid-being-raped-16265

Created and designed by the Police Service of Northern Ireland, the flyer reads: "Alcohol is the number one rape drug. How much have you taken already?"

Following this the PSNI have provided a 'S.M.A.R.T' acronym to consider in regard to rape:

Say NO to any sex you don't want.
Make yourself clearly understood.
Alcohol affects your judgement so watch what you drink.
Rape stays with you for life.
Take care of each other and don't go off with someone you've just met.

That was the problem wims, we weren’t saying no and making ourselves clearly understood! Drunken hussies going off with people they’ve just met! They were asking for their lifelong trauma.

But what you absolutely can’t do is object to a man following you into the women’s toilets or stripping off in front of you in the women’s changing room at the gym when nobody else is around. Because that would make you a bigot.

They forgot the Tut and Move Away manoeuvre. Possibly they thought it was just too harsh on the rapist.

I thought the message from the well Stoned is that:

If someone's going to rape you he's going to rape you so why worry about it, or want single sex spaces?

You can always call the police after you've been raped and hey we have a 1% conviction rate on that so yay! Getting sexually assaulted is no problem. (The 'try not to get raped' and 'stays with you for life' as if rape's a bit serious for women is a bit cognitively dissonant there... someone hasn't been taking their glittery unicorns)

Not all people with penises are rapists, it's horribly mean to worry and suspect some person might rape or assault you, and they are probably more scared of you than you are of them - and stuff about being prude/frigid/ sex phobic/ kinkshaming and Other Words Too as reasons why you should be totally open to increased rates of sexual assault in mixed sex spaces anyway.

Is saying 'no' in a clear voice the magic spell for banishing all harm? Women just are not saying NO clearly enough? How exactly please has this been tested and what is the evidence base used? Are we talking 8 out of 10 rapes averted in test trials?

The other thing the police could do, if really concerned, is bystander intervention training. I saw some really good videos a few years ago focusing on that - on making it socially acceptable to intervene when a very drunk girl is being led somewhere by any guy. They were aimed at students, but they were fairly hard hitting. And what was clever about them is they also taught the concepts of enthusiastic, sober consent while framing it as the watchers being able to be heroic interveners - not to deter perpetrators. Yet plenty of those watching will have absorbed the "Don't Be That Guy" message at the same time. Halo effect around teaching consent, essentially.

That helps because it could reduce reccurrence. You can't stop deliberate, conscious predators. You can reduce the attitude that women's bodies are a resource to be accessed as long as the woman isn't actively on guard against that.

Were is the
Don't go out.
Don't date.
The list is not complete I am afraid.

The other thing the police could do, if really concerned, is bystander intervention training
I'm a police officer. Our force have run an operation doing this for about two years now, and it's been really good at deterring would be offenders who pray on vulnerable, lone, drunk girls. I loved being a part of it. Some of the male officers eyes were very opened after a few shifts on that I can tell you.
The wording of this ad is completely wrong. Ugh.

@TeaAndWine that's brilliant, and so good to hear (after the depressing start to the thread, especially!).

It just seems such a great way in, in terms of shifting ideas around consent, too. Because people get angry when asked to attend consent workshops. Bystander intervention ones - all about helping people avoid those nasty predators - is a lot easier to sell. And of course bystander intervention is important, too.

Just a win all ways round, and it's lovely to know your force do it.

Make yourself clearly understood.

As a victim this is honestly one of the most triggering things I've ever read. FFS.

Don't make yourself clearly understood if someone asks you why you feel unsafe sharing formerly safe spaces with penises though. Don't be clear then. Or you'll get in trouble. Good girls.

@TeaAndWine Thanks for the glimmer of hope.

In the Paris metro there are billboards that say 'what you see in porn is not the norm' and 'saying nothing means not consenting' (that's the best translation I can muster) - which was a breath of fresh air.

What advice would you give your daughter or son if they were going out for the night?

If my daughter was attacked I would only hold the person who attacked her responsible - but to limit the ability of someone to attack her I would advise her to take certain steps.

When my husband goes out occasionally he sometimes has a little too much to drink and I worry about him being beaten up on the way home. I tell him not to drink too much so he stays in control and I phone him to make sure he gets into a taxi on the way home. If he was attacked, it wouldn’t be his fault, but I still want to do everything I can to avoid it happening to him.

@JustForTheTasteOfIt

Make yourself clearly understood

Absolutely - if it is not a clear yes - then everything else is a no and = rape

Not the other way round.

Fucking idiots

It is Belfast. I spend a lot of time there and many of its inhabitants, male and female, hold misogynistic and old fashioned views.

It is Belfast. I spend a lot of time there and many of its inhabitants, male and female, hold misogynistic and old fashioned views.

Like any other city then.

apparently the leaflets are being withdrawn

inews.co.uk/news/northern-ireland/police-force-rape-advice-angers-public-1887845

@SuperSleepyBaby you give your own daughter advice that prioritises her; you give advice to keep her safe. You want to make sure that her risks of being the victim fall. The overall rates aren't your worry. And that's fine, as she's your girl.

The problem with the police giving that advice is that it does not reduce levels of rape at all, because there will always be a more vulnerable girl. All this advice does is make those victimised feel more self-blame. Juggling victims isn't going to reduce incidence. The police aim is meant to be victim reduction, not victim reorganisation.

Learning your limits around booze is part of growing up. Being raped should not be. Again, we need more education around consent, delivered via bystander intervention programmes (valuable in themselves, and make education around informed attitudes to consent more palatable to those you need to reach).

Of course they’re being withdrawn they’re hardly going to double down when there’s such widespread criticism. Apparently these are old leaflets that were discontinued years ago and they don’t know how they came to be handed out this week. But the fact is that multiple officers on the ground clearly didn’t spot that these were so inappropriate - whomever the team leaders were and PCs attending the event, did none of them think, hang on a sec, this isn’t cool? That’s the issue here. Not that the senior echelons won’t say the right thing and acknowledge that this is an unacceptable attitude. But that the culture in the forces at the bottom, the officers that often rape victims will be faced with at first contact (before being referred to specialist teams), see these sentiments as reasonable.

wellbevavedwomen, that Vancouver advert is interesting. I often wonder when advice aimed at potential victims comes out how a 'make sure you don't rape anyone' flyer would go down when handed out to the menfolk outside a nightclub.

And TeaAndWine, that's really good to hear, aiming for bystanders involvement sounds a great move.

I said no very clearly, several times. The way I made myself clear was with a hard smack to his jaw, which could have gone a lot worse for me in other circumstances. How exactly are women supposed to be clearer than saying no? The police should be educating men on the meaning of the word no, which many of them seem to not know the meaning of.

I reckon we could probably come up with our own flyer:

Fancy that girl?
Want to have sex with her?
Just remember no means no.
Her walking away from you means no.
Her pushing you off means no.
She's too drink to say no? Take that to mean no.
She's passed out? That's definitely a no.

Also, if she hasn't actually said yes, or the clear definite equivalent, take that as a no too.

I dunno. I was assaulted whilst pissed. Was it my fault? No. Would it have happened if I wasn't hammered? No. There are complete and utter scumbags out there. I can't control them but I can protect myself better. I realise this won't sit well with many of you.

This is pretty much what I was saying, but apparently wasn't appropriate as my comment was deleted. I'd also add though that my partner takes similar measures in avoiding groups of drunken men, e.g. crossing the road - being a big bloke who clearly lifts weights he seems to attract the attention of those that think he might be up for a scrap, rather than his size being a deterrent.

I'm not sure educating the culprits is the key either. I think most are likely very aware of their actions and just don't care - also the view of one of the big rape crisis charities too I believe. I'd prefer to see tougher sentencing, which if course is difficult in light if how hard the burden of proof is in sexual assault cases.

I dunno. I was assaulted whilst pissed. Was it my fault? No. Would it have happened if I wasn't hammered? No. There are complete and utter scumbags out there. I can't control them but I can protect myself better. I realise this won't sit well with many of you

Another major issue with the above statement is that it massively plays into the myth that rape is a thing that only happens down dark alleys, to 'bad' women who drink, or go out without male chaperones, or 'risk' the shortcut down the back street. It promotes the idea that if only these women had made "better" choices, not gone for a drink, not taken that shortcut etc. then they wouldn't have been raped. It shifts the blame from the attacker to the victim! You just cannot ignore the fact that most rape doesn't take place in these circumstances and so the answer isn't to try and control women's behaviour and freedom.

Another major issue with the above statement is that it massively plays into the myth that rape is a thing that only happens down dark alleys, to 'bad' women who drink.

But it sounds like that's exactly how it did happen in the above example - i.e. alcohol intoxication, not being a 'bad woman'.

There have been a lot of fairly high profile cases where drunk women have been taken advantage of in hotel rooms, sometimes waking up with little recollection of events. I've also been at a house party where the guys had to kick out a scumbag who kept trying to get into bed with a passed out girl.

I know my opinion is unpopular but there's a necessary differentation IMO between 'what's ethically right' and the reality of 'what's actually happening'. I'm not prepared to get beaten and raped to prove a point, even if it means accepting the reality that I can't always do the things I want to - e.g. jumping in the unlicensed cab to avoid waiting halfhour for a proper one.