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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Lisa Nandy interview demonstrates she still doesn't understand Safeguarding yet & neither do the other Labour leadership candidates.

110 replies

R0wantrees · 21/02/2020 15:47

Interview:
mobile.twitter.com/PoliticsJOE_UK/status/1230837769200689155

The violent child rapist referred to by Dr Julia Long is not in prison. Christopher Warton was found guilty of breaching the SHPO last year by a Worcestershire court & ordered to pay a £93 fine, a £30 victim surcharge and £135 in court costs.

So this male offender would be able to aquire a GRC under the proposals which Nandy, Starmer & Long-Bailey all support with such solidarity.

The women's spaces which this 'violent offender' would therefore legitimately have full access to would be female changing rooms, hospital wards, rape services etc

Article:
"A TRANSGENDER woman, previously convicted of raping a girl, has breached a sexual harm prevention order.

Zoe Lynes was sent to a youth detention centre in 2014, after pleading guilty to five counts of rape against a child aged between 13 and 15.

Yesterday [24th January 2019], the 22-year-old, whose name was also given in court as Christopher Worton, admitted breaching her sexual harm prevention order."
transcrimeuk.com/2019/02/08/christopher-worton-zoe-lynes/

Im amazed that no-one in Labour (or those interviewing) has thought to do the most basic background check to establish the details of the case or to listen to what Dr Julia Long actually asks:
www.youtube.com/watch?feature=youtu.be&v=oUon9j1zJ_E&

thread:
www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3824781-Lisa-Nandy-says-child-rapists-should-be-in-women-s-prisons-if-they-identify-as-female

OP posts:
PronounssheRa · 23/02/2020 11:14

The problem for Nandy and the others is that they never took the opportunities presented to them to meet with WPUK

I mentioned this on another thread, but its relevant here.

WPUK met with butler in 2018. The details of the meeting and names of attendees was leaked to pink news

testing987654321 · 23/02/2020 11:52

Personally, I'd like to see more backbone and integrity in our elected representatives.

And this is why none of those who signed the pledge are ready for leadership. Maybe give it a few years, get more experience and they might be suitable, but not when making such obvious mistakes.

These people have got to persuade others, not sign any old nonsense and hope no-one pulls them up on it.

BuzzShitbagBobbly · 23/02/2020 12:08

Nandy desperately trying to backpedal a bit now.

Too late, love.

“I have to say, that was the part of the pledge that gave me pause for thought about whether to sign it,” said Nandy. “I decided to sign it in the end because I think that the sentiment of the pledge about protecting trans rights and about accepting that trans men are men and trans women are women is really important, especially at the moment with the level of discrimination that people face.”

She added: “I don’t think that proscribing organisations is actually the right way to deal with disciplinary issues in the Labour party.

“I think that the question for us is always about individual behaviour and it’s right to recognise that there are women who have fought for generations in order to create safe spaces for women who want to have a proper debate about how we best protect that in an era where we’ve recognised that trans men are men, trans women are women, and we’ve got to do far more to protect trans women from harm as well.

“I want to see us have an open debate, I don’t want to see us close down debate and I don’t want anybody who’s listening to this to think that I do.”

www.theguardian.com/politics/2020/feb/23/lisa-nandy-wording-trans-rights-pledge-labour-leadership

OldCrone · 23/02/2020 12:16

I think that the sentiment of the pledge about protecting trans rights and about accepting that trans men are men and trans women are women is really important

I'd like Nandy to explain at exactly what point a person changes sex in her opinion. Is it at the point when they say 'I am a (wo)man'? Can we always trust that every person who claims to be the opposite sex is telling the truth about their trans status? Especially considering that convicted male criminals identify as transgender at a much higher rate than the general population.

DryHeave · 23/02/2020 12:35

I can’t believe that this is what the labour party are eating themselves over.

Languishingfemale · 23/02/2020 12:39

So she signs a pledge calling women's groups hate groups and demanding that anyone who debates any aspect of this is transphobic and must be thrown out of the party and then a couple of days later does a reverse ferret and says she doesn't want to shut down debate and we must talk about it.
So has she withdrawn her signature??? ....... Thought not.

Mockersisrightasusual · 23/02/2020 12:51

Another one not fit to look after the school hamster at half-term.

Floisme · 23/02/2020 12:58

I normally argue that, if we're going to win this, we've got to allow people room to change their minds. This does not however extend to back pedalling and arse covering.

She could have said at the time that she had misgivings about expulsions.
Even now she could hold up her hands and say she dropped a clanger when she signed it. It's never too late to do the right thing in my opinion.
Instead she calls for an open debate? The bloody brass neck of the woman.

And no I don't think Starmer has any more integrity but at least he has the wit to recognise a trap when he sees one, which is kind of important in a leader.

Violetparis · 23/02/2020 13:09

Someone needs to ask all the leadership candidates if accepting biological facts rather than accepting that TWAW is transphobic ?

Languishingfemale · 23/02/2020 13:16

I agree Floisme that we have to allow people to change their minds with some dignity. Trouble is, her 'clarification' doesn't do that. She has not stated that the groups are not hate groups and she has not removed the threats to those speaking out. Merely clarified that she thought about it but signed up to the pledge anyway. Complete hypocrisy.

Goosefoot · 23/02/2020 13:23

I like political leaders to have a sense of how written documents need to have some real precision and care in their creation.

R0wantrees · 23/02/2020 16:26

Labour leadership candidates (& interviewers) might these questions that Mumsnet posters wanted to ask Penny Mordant during the government sex self-id consultation auseful starting point:

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3297184-Your-comments-for-Penny-Mordaunt

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3535914-The-questions-and-answers-from-Penny-Mordaunt-on-sex-gender-identity

OP posts:
ThrowingGoodAfterBad · 23/02/2020 16:43

So she is claiming in her defence that she did not fully understand something before signing it and anyway TWAW are the most important thing?

Well that really makes me want to see her as a leader of HM Opposition and a potential second-in-command leader of the country then. What a bunch of total amateurs. When did politicians become so incompetent?

RedToothBrush · 23/02/2020 16:45

I notice that Nandy has only said this after Blair stuck his oar in saying that no leadership contender should sign pledges and that Labour having a culture war on the lines of transgender issues v immigration was one they are always going to lose.

Nandy has obviously taken that on board, but not taken the views of women on board.

It's all about trying to be the most popularist and she has suddenly realised she might have dropped a bollock on this.

I am not convinced she would have backtracked but for Blairs intervention.

That's not leadership...

RedToothBrush · 23/02/2020 16:47

And yes the effect now, is to make her look incapable of understanding complex issues and just happy to jump on the latest passing band wagon without thought.

Not exactly prime ministerial material...

R0wantrees · 23/02/2020 20:19

There are many threads running which show how influential policy makers whether MPs, trans rights activists or those managing important spaces for women & girls don't understand the context or principles of Safeguarding risk assessments. Karen Ingala Smith does.

As wellbehavedwomen has just posted on a current thread Sun 23-Feb-20 17:46:30:

"The problem is, people will nod and smile and agree that it's a concern, and then we'll get stuff like Jess "Back Office" Phillips's recent insisting, from her enormous and simply spiffing experience "running" (working as a business development manager for) a Women's Aid, that risk assessing is really easy and totally reliable and "years of experience" mean that staff can consult their infallible crystal balls in knowing how dangerous someone is. Just like the Parole Board did when planning to release John Warboys, for example, or the prison service when shoving the predatory paedophile and rapist male "Karen" White in with women.

Karen Ingala Smith says the safeguarding assessments argument is the most mendacious bullshit, but hey. Ignore women in favour of convenient hand-waving, right?

And her expertise and authority on this subject is why Mumsnet have her Femicide Census as a pinned post, right now. She's a huge figure in the women's aid movement. Why are people listening to lobby groups, instead of a senior service provider in the sector concerned?!

I'm quoting her at length - sorry for that, but I think her words are so important I really think they should be shared as often and as widely as possible. And people often don't read links."
kareningalasmith.com/2020/01/20/the-importance-of-women-only-spaces-and-services-for-women-and-girls-whove-been-subjected-to-mens-violence/

Some say that ‘we’ – those of us working is specialist women’s services – can use risk assessments to assess whether a male who says he is trans poses a risk to women. Let’s look at this in relation to women’s refuges:

When a risk assessment is completed with a woman looking to move in to a refuge, time is usually critical. You need to help her to get to a place of safety and quickly. She’s either already left her home or is planning to do so urgently because she is in danger. Maybe she’s called and needs to get out whilst her partner is due to be out of the house for a few hours. You’re also looking at whether the location of the refuge offers safety and can meet the woman’s needs and those of her children if she has them, and whether she herself might pose a risk to others living in the refuge. With risk assessment, you’re assessing the risk she is facing from her partner and planning how you can help her to reduce the often intensified risks associated with actually leaving an abusive man. The Femicide Census, a project I co-founded, told us that a third of women who are killed by a partner/ex-partner, are killed after they have left him. Of these about a third are killed within the first month and two-thirds within the first year. Leaving an abusive man is dangerous and difficult. Risk assessment with safety planning can help save lives. Risk assessment is not about assessing whether or not a woman is, in reality, a violent male.

If you expect refuges to accommodate males who identify as trans, you’re asking staff in already under-resourced women’s refuges (Scottish Women’s Aid report that cuts to Scottish refuges have increased from 14% to 41% between 2009 and 2016. Their annual survey reported that 30% of survivors who sought refuge in Scotland had to be turned away), you’re asking staff in already under-resourced women’s refuges, to differentiate between:

Transgender people born male who have genuinely experienced men’s violence and have managed to unpick their male socialisation and who will not use their sense of male entitlement or sexism or misogyny to harm, reduce and control women in the refuge and those transgender people born male who have genuinely experienced violence but are still dripping in male privilege and advantage and who hate or resent women; and those transgender people born male who are narcissistic perpetrators who have managed to convince themselves (and others) that they are victims , and those transgender people born male who are seeking validation, which some, if they were self-aware and able to be honest, would recognise as a need that can never be satisfied, and who might prioritise their validation above the needs of women, and those transgender people born male who are autogynophiles (that’s a male who is sexually aroused by the thought of himself as a female) or other fetishists, and, finally other men who are pretending to be trans in order to track down a particular woman or predatory men trying to access women in general. And we do know that violent and abusive men lie and manipulate. Violent and abusive men stand up in court, swear to tell the truth and lie and manipulate. No one’s yet explained to me how risk assessment is supposed to screen out most of those men – let alone convinced me of the wisdom of trying to make a bedroom for a fox in a henhouse. Risk assessment is about identifying risks posed by violent men and mitigating against them, not chucking in a few extra because you can.

But …. let’s set that small matter aside. Let’s imagine for a moment that you could, as some claim, risk assess trans-identified males for their suitability and safety to inhabit your space or attend your service, which of course is now no-longer women-only. What you’re ignoring if you do this is the impact of men’s presence on women who’ve been subjected to men’s violence.

It’s not unusual for women who’ve been subjected to men’s violence to develop a trauma response. These sometimes develop after a single incident of violence, especially with sexual violence, but also sometimes after years or months of living in fear, walking on egg-shells, recognising that tone of voice, that look in the eyes, that sigh, that pause, that silence, that change in his breathing. Some women have lived this, with a succession of perpetrators starting from their dad, all their lives.

A trauma informed approach is based on understanding the physical, social, and emotional impact of trauma caused by experiencing sexual and domestic violence and abuse. A trauma-informed service understands the importance of creating an environment – physical and relational – that feels safe to victims-survivors in all the ways I’ve just mentioned. A trauma-informed safe space creates space for action and recovery from violence and abuse and places the woman victim-survivor in control and in the centre. For many women this absolutely means excluding men from that space, including those who don’t identify as men.

Women are gas-lighted (manipulated to question their own judgement or even sanity) by their abusive male partners all the time. It is a cornerstone of coercive control. As a service provider you are in a position of power, no matter how you try to balance this out, and of course we do as much as possible to balance this out, but ultimately it is inescapable. You are not offering a trauma informed environment if you, in your position of power, gaslight traumatised women and pretend that someone that you both really know is a man, is actually a woman. It is furthering the abuse to then expect women to share what you say is women-only space with males who say that they are women, because you and they know are not. Part of your role is to help women to learn to trust themselves again, not replace the batshit that their abuser has filled their head with, with a new version. All this is on top of what I looked at earlier, that statistically women are safer in women only environments – because men commit violence at significantly higher rates.

It isn’t just women experiencing serious and debilitating trauma who benefit from women-only spaces and services. Women tell us that they want and value women-only space for safety, empathy, trust, comfort, a focus on women’s needs, the expertise of female staff often themselves survivors. They tell us they feel more confident and find them less intimidating. Women-only spaces offer not only a space away from the specific man that women are escaping or who has violated them but away from men in general; away from men’s control and demands for attention; away from men taking physical and mental space; away from the male gaze and men’s constant appraisal of women; away from men’s expectations to be cared for and, just as importantly, a space where women share in common experiences of abuse despite how these differ and despite all the other differences between us. A space with others who understand, to whom you don’t have to explain why you didn’t leave earlier and who know how easy it is to feel guilty or stupid because you didn’t.

We know that at least 80% of males who hold a gender recognition certificate retain their penis, but anyway, we don’t need to know what’s in their pants to know they are a man. Women experiencing trauma after violence and abuse will, like most of us – almost always instantly read someone who might be the most kind and gentle trans identified male in the world – as male; and they may experience debilitating terror immediately and involuntarily, they will modify their behaviour, their actions and expectations in countless ways, many that they are not consciously aware off. They need and deserve a break, don’t they?

Since I’ve spoken out to defend women-only services, I’ve lost count of the number of victim-survivors of men’s violence who have told me how important a women only service was to them. They’re often upset and emotional when they start to talk about this.

That any woman working in, but most of all those in leadership positions which are connected to women’s welfare, are prepared to sit on the fence about the importance of women-only spaces for victim survivors of men’s violence, and whether men can magically become women, makes me want to both rage – and weep. You cannot opt of this. You cannot sit back. You cannot, especially if you are happy to accept the salary and other perks of a leadership position claim to ‘have an opinion on this’ but in the next breath say it ‘isn’t safe for me to speak out’. None of women’s political gains were achieved by well-paid women who played safe and put themselves first rather than women as a class. How dare any woman take a leadership position and leave it to others, many of them victim-survivors, to do this? How dare they claim to care about women’s safety and look away, pretending that there is nothing to see here? Please don’t look away.

This not about hate. It’s not about bigotry. It is not anti-trans. It’s about women and children who have been subjected to men’s violence. Can we please just sometimes – sometime like now – put them first?

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3830539-Liz-Truss-in-Daily-Mail-legitimate-concerns-predators-may-abuse-self-ID?watched=1&msgid=94173542#94173542

OP posts:
Ereshkigalangcleg · 23/02/2020 21:36

In an era where we’ve recognised that trans men are men, trans women are women,

Who is "we"? Speak for yourself love. I haven't and nor have most people.

TheBewildernessisWeetabix · 23/02/2020 21:47

Many of the women here on FWR saw this coming back when the transitioning advocacy organizations began declaring women's rights to be anti-trans.
Point nine of this pledge card (signed by Nandy and RLB, but not Starmer) has sparked an argument within Labour as it says that groups like Woman’s Place UK and LGB Alliance are trans-exclusionist hate groups...

wellbehavedwomen · 23/02/2020 22:18

She's having a bit of a panic at the realisation that all the nice young activists they assumed had fingers on the pulse are actually extreme outliers. But she can't say so or she'll lose their votes for definite, without having gained any of the moderates.

If she hadn't thrown women under the bus so casually, I'd feel sorry for her. As it is: you reap what you sow.

TheProdigalKittensReturn · 23/02/2020 22:23

Again we seem to be back to the problem that nobody can currently get elected leader of the Labour party without extreme pandering to TRA demands, and nobody who does pander to those demands can win a general election. So we won't have another Labour government until that fundamental problem is solved.

wellbehavedwomen · 23/02/2020 22:35

Honestly, I'm not sure that's even true. I think that Labour have considerably more sane members than insane activists.

The extent of the reverse ferretting since the membership survey (on why we lost) was live is interesting. I don't think that this is popular in the wider party, never mind the country. They just haven't afforded any alternative, because the activists surround all the senior party echelons.

TheProdigalKittensReturn · 23/02/2020 22:36

I'd agree that most Labour members probably think the gender stuff is nonsense, especially the Nandy or Butler version, but it's not going to do much good if the only candidates on offer for them to vote for are all pandering like mad and Momentum etc are making sure that anyone who doesn't is defeated.

wellbehavedwomen · 23/02/2020 22:39

Yep. It's miserable.

AuntyKati · 13/04/2020 00:23

And if self-definition trumps psychiatry, what is the place and role of psychiatry in these cases if any?