Moral Maze, R4 19th Feb 8pm

[MrsSnippyPants]

You won't want to miss this!

twitter.com/Womans_Place_UK/status/1229901138192891904?s=20

I think the difference when you can make your point without being shouted down or misquoted and smeared is huuuuuge, and this programme demonstrates that really clearly. Glinner was being goaded & prodded to distract from the points he wanted to make, but he was better prepared for that this time.

Kiri did really well and made some very basic easy to follow points very clear. The 1st person just didn't sound very rational at all, and illustrated exactly why they cling to #nodebate because when challenged, their arguments are built on sand. Fae was disingenuous but Fae does disingenuous better than most so I take nothing Fae says seriously.

I hate that I'm already agreeing with Michael Portillo!

I've never voted Tory, but Portillo is genuinely well intentioned and capable. Many of his generation of politicians look like giants next to the current crop.

That said he failed miserably to hold the TRA to account. He just couldn't get a handle on the ridiculousness of the argument- he wasn't prepared to nail down exactly what was being said.

Anne McElvoy did a lot better. I thought she was trying hard to get Kiri Tunks to be clearer.

I did miss the very beginning but I thought the Fae/Linehan portion of the program was a bit clearer in terms of the what the actual issues are at stake (particularly re children). The trouble with the first half was we got a lot of talk about "single sex exemptions" and "single sex spaces" with no concrete examples. So the public don't know what's being discussed or it just sounds like women are parroting on about bathrooms again.

Interviewees have got to start talking about SPORT. Plus rape crisis centres, school changing rooms, prisons, along with specific examples. This is the sort of information that will make ears perk up.

I think someone could have mentioned what going on puberty blockers actually entails in terms of effects on body and brain, and also WHY women need safe spaces; Jane Fae tried to make out it's purely social, ignoring the centuries of women's real oppression BECAUSE of our biology.

I imagine there was some biting of knuckles going on, or sticking of gaffer tape on own mouths, to stop themselves frequently screaming 'TRANSPHOBIC!!!'

Agh there’s 2 threads. Graham referenced the briefing notes twice. What WAS on them? He didn’t seem party to them 🤷🏼‍♀️

I can't believe Jane Fae is invited on a panel to discuss women's rights after the eggshell skull comments. Strongly minded to complain to the BBC on that basis. Fae has got no place commenting on women prisoners' safety after that. True colours shown.

GC interviewees need to be talking about hospitals a lot more in these interviews too. Not many of us will have the misfortune to find ourselves in a prison or a refuge, but the need for sex-segregated wards are hugely relateable. Lots of people will have spent time in hospital feeling vulnerable and desperate for some privacy, or have immediate family who have. Once people consider how they’d feel in a mixed ward or reflect on their own experiences, they will immediately ‘get’ the issue about prisons and refuges.

If someone at the BBC has written briefing notes that represent a negative view of Graham's opinions then that needs to be known and I hope Graham will take it up with the programme's producer.

The 1st person just didn't sound very rational at all, and illustrated exactly why they cling to #nodebate because when challenged, their arguments are built on sand.

The first person was Torr Robinson, chair of the Labour Campaign for Trans Rights whose 'pledge' has been signed by a number of Labour MPs including those running for leadership.

Robinson has written a long piece about the 'roadmap to trans liberation'
tribunemag.co.uk/2020/02/the-labour-campaign-for-trans-rights

& been interviewed at length Episode 40 'What the Trans!?' from 5 mins
www.stitcher.com/podcast/whynoteatcats/what-the-trans

It's interesting that Jane Fae and the non-binary TRA bloke were much more eloquent and careful than usual.

There was lots of care about debate not being transphobic. Lots of joking and stressing that they are interested in protections for women from Fae and even the TRA was less totalitarian than usual.

Poor Graham obviously hates public speaking. He had a really good crack at making the arguments. I really wish we'd had the likes of Dr Stock on there.

I can't believe Jane Fae is invited on a panel to discuss women's rights after the eggshell skull comments. Strongly minded to complain to the BBC on that basis. Fae has got no place commenting on women prisoners' safety after that.

threads:
www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3374614-John-Ozimek-now-Jane-Fae-on-women-feminists-and-victims-of-pornographers

Report by TheHarpySings of the September 2018 TRA conference organised by Jane Fae:
www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3398737-We-re-Still-Here-Conference-8th-September-A-report-from-the-inside

Evening, everyone. Just popping by with a reminder of our usual rules. Please try and keep comments about people featured on the programme civil. Thanks!

I'm a regular R4 listener and I don't think I'd have followed this debate as clearly if I hadn't swotted a bit (mainly on here) about the issues it raises. I tried listening with an open mind to all the panellists.

Excellent questioning from Michael Portillo, credit must be given where it is due. He demonstrated that he very clearly understood what the concerns of women are.

As always, thank you glinner for speaking up you did great!

Agh there’s 2 threads. Graham referenced the briefing notes twice. What WAS on them? He didn’t seem party to them

Indeed - what are these 'briefing notes' and are they the same ones used on Newsnight?

The briefing note must be given to the panellists and chair in advance.

But who writes it, where does it come from, what is on it, because Graham didn't seem to know.

Sounds like whoever wrote the briefing notes twisted Glinner's words as much as possible.

I think production assistants write them, by speaking to the interviewee beforehand and snipping a couple of points out of any recent publicity.

I suppose if you are the most hated man on the internet, the odds are stacked against you. I googled him the other day and TRAs have really done a number on him.

Yes, there really does need to be an investigation into the briefing notes. If the person who prepared them has spun them then that would justify a serious complaint.

I'm already wondering whether we need to make a serious complaint about only having two female voices out of seven (Anne McElvoy and Kiri Tunks) in a discussion centred on women's rights. Although frankly Michael Portillo and Graham Linehan did the majority of the heavy lifting as far as I'm concerned.

Lineham and Portillo were great. I thought that Portillo didn't get enough time to speak- he didn't get the chance to interrogate the 2 GC witnesses for a start.
It's a shame he doesn't go on twitter, as I'd say thank you. (I went to a talk he did once, and he said he had to make the choice between twitter and alcohol, and chose the latter)

Mona Siddiqui?

There was a helluva lot of talking over Kiri Tunks and Glinner.

Rachel Mann's communication style came across as extremely coercive to me.

I don't think most people are aware of the trans labour pledge thing because they're not following the leadership contest much, so Torr Robinson will just have come across as a random person with strange pomo views.

I'm also wondering about these 'briefing notes' and I hope Glinner takes it up with the BBC. Who writes them? Do some people get to write their own and others are written by BBC researchers? There seemed to be some confusion.

I suspect the 'briefing notes' on Jane Fae lacked some historical detail. Who wrote Jane's briefing notes?

Wonderful blast of sunlight though

two female voices out of seven (Anne McElvoy and Kiri Tunks) in a discussion centred on women's rights.

Three of nine including Michael Buerk

No female trans voices.

Both Michael Portillo & Graham Linehan referenced male TS to support their positions so there was no representation of female trans or non-binary people.