New rules NHS staff can refuse to treat racist or sexist patients.

[Procrastinator2]

news.sky.com/story/nhs-staff-can-refuse-to-treat-racist-or-sexist-patients-under-new-rules-11937175

Matt Hancock says "All assault and hate crimes against NHS staff must be investigated with care, compassion, diligence and commitment," he said.

I think this could probably be used to stop women requesting natal female health care professional.

Barristers can choose their clients.

The slippery slope is in behaviour that is tolerated in hospitals. Dementia undoubtedly removes inhibitors but that is very different from a drunkard or yob shouting racist abuse or assaulting staff.

Can they Cherry? I think in criminal defence they cannot.

As a very long serving member of the nhs who has been really badly affected by the abuse I've received in recent months, I absolutely agree something needs to be done.

What we are now expected to tolerate and woke in through is just horrific. I'm not remotely ruffled by demented or distressed patients, I can generally manage very drunk or high patients too. I can appreciate that fear and panic cause people to behave badly....

But I can no longer take being shouted at, threatened, spat at, physically hurt, having items thrown at me and being harangued and criticised by multiple people every shift.

Despite the signs, despite the security guards, despite the often enormous audience we are bit helped to feel safe and we are frequently hurt or frightened and quite frankly, something needs to change.

I have never worked with anyone, at all, who would refuse a patient their reasonable request for same sex chaperone or clinican if it could be met.

"Barristers can choose their clients."

No they cannot, the cab rank rule is a well established principle in England, you can only refuse if you don't feel you have the expertise to represent someone. If you are asked to represent someone within your field of competency you have to do so, its to prevent people being shamed for taking on undesirable clients and so people don't think that the barrister ascribes to the same ideology as that client.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cab-rank_rule

You can’t refuse because of a protected characteristic obviously but you can say you don’t do that sort of work or have a moral or ethical reason not to represent.
You can refuse because of abuse.

Let’s not forget that in most walks of life racist abuse and violence are criminal offences. Why should NHS staff be expected to tolerate that?

My wonderful, polite grandmother became a raging racist once the Alzheimer’s set in. Her caregivers were mostly Jamaican immigrants. It was not a pleasant working environment, but they never refused her care.

I worked 17 years in the nhs. I've been punched, kicked, slapped, verbally abused, touched inappropriately, deliberately given a needle stick injury. The worst was being grabbed round the throat.

I never refused to treat any of them, I did leave the NHS by the time I was 35 though.

How many good staff do they loose this way I wonder.

Honestly, while I appreciate the risk here, I've seen some heinous behaviour towards amazing NHS professionals. On one occasion some dreadful verbal abuse was meted out to some nurses. They didn't hold her responsible (she had metastatic breast cancer which had reached her brain). But the abuse was unspeakably unpleasant and I don't know how they remained so cool and kind. They deserved a bloody medal quite frankly.

Lots of scared patients get angry, and at times verbally abusive. NHS staff are used to that, sadly. For them to use this, on the whole I think we'd be talking about truly aggressive, and potentially violent patients.

They're horribly overworked and miserably underpaid. Least we can do is protect them from physical abuse and beyond the pale spite. Of course everyone deserves care, no matter how unpleasant, but we also have a duty of care to staff.

I do see that it could be twisted to the sort of awfulness Clare Dimyon has experienced. But the care for good staff dealing with abuse is important as well.

Whao, I'm shocked.

Caroline Criado-Perez has a section in her book on assaults on nurses. I'm pretty sure she says they are the most assaulted profession statistically (book not to hand to check).

Yet until I saw it in print and despite experiencing low level assault, including sexual assaults on nearly every shift I worked, I was oblivious to it. It is so normalised.

It's a long time since I've worked on the front line, but I gather things have got a lot worse in recent years. And while some patients with cognitive decline can't be held responsible, there is not enough done about patients and their families who knowingly hurt and abuse staff.

Equally, patients have a right to being able to specify the sex of the person carrying out intimate care.

TBH I think this is a horrific idea no matter who it's directed against. It goes against the whole basis of public health care and the role of the physician and health care worker.

Public health care is for everyone, whatever their religious, philosophical, or other views, if they are racists or homophobes, if they are murderers or mobsters.

Of course everyone deserves care, no matter how unpleasant,

But how does this happen if people can refuse to care for some? It will rely on those who don't care what the rules say, they feel they have a duty of care anyway. That group is likely to become smaller if the culture around this changes.

Despite the signs, despite the security guards, despite the often enormous audience we are bit helped to feel safe and we are frequently hurt or frightened and quite frankly, something needs to change.

But is this really the answer? What will happen, the intolerable will be told to leave with their problem?

I also have serious doubts that this addresses the cause of the change in behaviour in patients. It makes me think of the discussion about men staying on the wards and their behaviour and that of other guests - why does this happen now? Why do people no longer seem to treat staff in a civilised way, or recognise authority? Is it too few staff members, worse behaviour in the public generally? Everyone thinks the rules are not for them?

Of course no one is condoning assault of NHS staff. This is already a criminal offence. It is interesting that this guidance is introduced at a time when a least three hospitals are introducing trans guidance
www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3823499-Three-NHS-trusts-to-adopt-guidelines-written-by-a-trans-activist
and another trusts guidance called a woman who asked for care by natal women transphobic.

I absolutely agree that NHS staff should be protected from the kind of abuse that pp have described. But I'm suspicious of anything claiming to tackle "sexism". The NHS has been completely captured by gender identity ideology and no one gives a fuck about women. I smell a Trojan horse.

A q for people working there now - is it getting worse do you think?

the care for good staff dealing with abuse is important as well.

It is. However every time a wellmeaning piece of legislation has been created for real and important reasons around behaviour and isms, not specifying in small words exactly what 'abuse' means and exactly where the line is, it's been grabbed by a certain section of society and every nuance of it exploited in ways it was never meant and which was never foreseen by those who created it in good faith.

And it's then not effectively used to protect as intended, but works splendidly to harass and push political agendas that harm people the legislation was never intended for. 'Good chap' legislation cannot happen any more. Rules, regulations, policy and legislation are going to have to be risk assessed by being run through thought exercises and created to be clear enough that someone with a significant personality disorder acting in bad faith would not be able to weaponise it for their personal gain, including acting out extremist beliefs against others. That has to be the new test of good enough for release to the public, under advice from those familiar with working with customers of this type.

Not least to protect the police, courts and huge amounts of public funding from picking up the pieces of badly thought out policy being exploited.

Not to mention that really, thinking needs to go deeper than 'how do we stop a nurse dealing with ever increasing numbers of unpleasant, threatening, entitled, demanding and aggressive people all night' and dig in to 'how have we got into a position where we have increasing numbers of people in the UK whose values don't include basic behaviour skills, self control, respect for others and boundaries? What's caused this massive lack of respect for nhs staff? What is reinforcing this?' Because that needs dealing with directly too, through tv campaigns and ads, the way drink driving was made into something most people saw as unacceptable.

I (just) have enough confidence that the NHS is generally staffed by compassionate and sensitive people and don't believe that it will be misused against women

Current news stories discuss racism in the NHS and the lack of promotion of BAME staff. 1 in 4 NHS staff report that they are bullied by the managers and colleagues.

'I also have serious doubts that this addresses the cause of the change in behaviour in patients. It makes me think of the discussion about men staying on the wards and their behaviour and that of other guests - why does this happen now? Why do people no longer seem to treat staff in a civilised way, or recognise authority? Is it too few staff members, worse behaviour in the public generally? Everyone thinks the rules are not for them?'

This is a good point and an interesting question.

My guess would be in part because the NHS has been and is being run down.

People are much more polite and patient when they don't feel like they are having to fight for resources.

Like the men at my work who do 'ladies first' in the office obviously don't do it when getting on the tube... When you feel like you have to fight for your share of resource, behaviour changes. Probably a terrible example, but hopefully you get my drift.

In my late teens, I worked in a care home. A lot of residents were varying levels of abusive. One of the residents would try to grope any female staff. The thing is, most if not all of this was because they were ill (dementia, etc). I have sympathy with NHS staff - obviously no one should be assaulted or indeed insulted at work. But then how do we treat people who, because of the actual nature of their illness, will be rude and violent? I don't have an answer, but I think it's worthy of more discussion than it gets at the moment.

To add, I agree that patients should be able to ask to be treated by medical staff of the same sex and this shouldn't cause them to be treated any differently (although practically I imagine sometimes that might have to lead to waiting longer, and I think that's just one of those things.)

Iv only been qualified 3 years. Abuse of staff is rife. It's getting worse and staffing levels are getting lower and lower. I'm constantly covered in bruises, I'm degraded, bullied and mentally abused as well as physically. I could make a complaint at least once every shift but literally don't have the time to do this. Patient care comes first! No one is ever refused care. I don't work on the 'front line' I'm a ward based nurse. 7 of my last 8 night shifts we have had no security working within the entire hospital. I'm in my 30's and the amount of students who are dropping out because of abuse alone is increasing. Nurses are no longer seen as professionals. Another piece of paper is going to make no difference at all.

'how have we got into a position where we have increasing numbers of people in the UK whose values don't include basic behaviour skills, self control, respect for others and boundaries? What's caused this massive lack of respect for nhs staff? What is reinforcing this?

Excellent question that also covers staff-on-staff disrespect, some *isms, and abuse.