Lampooned for not using "correct" pronouns

[VinegarTitz]

I signed up today for a bit of advice after reading this site since pregnant with my first child a few years ago.

As is my normal writing style, I used non gendered pronouns to refer to my other half and me.

I was expecting some robust responses but I was a little surprised that instead of commenting on the issue I raised, I got a load of grief about not immediately identifying myself as a woman and my husband as a man even though, having read the OP back, I think it's pretty clear.

What's the dealio? I understood that MN was supposed to be supportive, not discouraging and obnoxious towards women!

There is a phenomenon of ‘reverse posts’ and Men’s Rights Activists posting ‘Gotchas’ on Mumsnet.
People are sick of having time wasted by disingenuous posters. A new name, a memorable one that sticks out, will arouse suspicions (Cell Block H fan? )

Now you are here, why not ask us?

So you posted this in feminism because?

What DuLANG said

What were you asking about?

You need to look up ‘lampooned’ OP ...

Well vinegertitz quite the username.

we don't like reverses or the use of they amongst other things. I personally assumed you were female from your thread but couldnt be arsed because of the deliberate hiding of your sex.

If you're not happy with your sex life then leave and find someone who is. It's that simple.

Or get a womaniser

Found it

I used non gendered pronouns to refer to my other half and me.
Everyone uses ungendered pronouns to refer to themselves ( I, me). I've seen plenty of posts referring to their DP or spouse which turns out to be a same sex relationship or it's never specified which haven't been 'lampooned' or any other negative response. So maybe you were just unlucky - MN posters aren't homogeneous.

Because at the end of the day mn is a bunch of unqualified agony aunts. And to be able to answer the question fully we need to know everything about the relationship. The answer for question coming from a dh about a dw is very different from a dw asking about a dh. And any other combination.

Pronouns such as I and me don't matter as much she on their own though

Helen Saxby: Women are not just expected to be nice whilst fighting for our rights, we're expected to be nice instead of fighting for our rights.

The thing is OP that people generally post threads in gender neutral language for 2 reasons: 1. They are men who think that they'll get harsher comments if women know that they're men, and 2. People who don't think the sex of the participates is relevant and want to prevent the replies being biased along those terms.

Generally, but not always, it matters in discussions around sex if you are a man or a woman posting. That's because men have a long standing history of demanding sex with no regard for the feelings of their partner, whilst many women will refuse sex for valid reasons. If you are a man posting "my wife never wants sex" you will quite rightly be asked whether she is afraid of getting pregnant, recently postpartum, experiencing low libido from breastfeeding, "touched out" from doing most of the childcare, or exhausted from doing most of the housework. These are very common reasons women don't want sex, and they often occur against a backdrop of the man being lazy, pushy, unempathetic, and sexually entitled.

If a woman posts "my husband doesn't want sex" it's less likely that he's tired from all the housework, and more likely that he's stressed at work, watching too much porn, depressed, having an affair, or that there's a medical reason. People post neutrally to avoid these "sexist" assumptions, but that doesn't help when they also happen to be true. Men and women often live very different lives, and the power dynamics between them are especially important when it comes to sex.

By posting in a neutral way people assumed you were a man trying to avoid the above allegations, and responded to you accordingly. When they found out you were female they realised their advice was unlikely to be relevant. People wanted to give you advice that would actually reflect your situation, and you kind of wasted their time by making them play 20 questions to get a crucial bit of information. Maybe you didn't think it mattered which sex you both were, but sadly that isn't the world we live in.

Tl/dr: sex is a gendered issue, so using gender neutral language to discuss it will lead to meaningly generic advice.

I signed up today for a bit of advice after reading this site since pregnant with my first child a few years ago

If you want free advice then it’s generally a good idea to be nice to the people you want help from.

As is my normal writing style

Bit of an odd normal writing style?

Folk (especially on AIBU) can be a bit merciless when OPs are vague about relevant details, making it hard to get any firm context. I like the bluntness but it's not fun to be on the recieving end of lots of similar posts.

Did you mean to post this in feminism?

MN, being a female-oriented website, tends to attract a LOT of trolls. Those that come to FWR think they're very clever and original but really they're all over MN. (Funnily enough there's a thread running somewhere about those jokes/questions you get asked that they think you've never heard before - 'how's the weather up there?' to someone tall, for example. I'm reminded of it as I write this)

As others have said, many posters are wary - there's an entire subreddit devoted to spotting bullshitters on MN.

Also, for all the people who say that FWR is mean, AIBU can be really brutal.

Thanks all!

Yes, I did mean to post in feminism as I think it's an interesting issue.

From my perspective I was seeking advice and the majority of the responses I got seemed desperate to out me as a man because I failed to comply with traditional norms. Surely this is an archaic trend that should be on it's way out by now!

I feel that I was being vilified because I'm a woman wanting sex with my husband either while pregnant or after childbirth. Add on top that I wanted to go back to work within a year while my husband looks after the kids surely makes me a man.

My writing style is what it is because of my career essentially - I communicate with people all over the world and using gendered pronouns can cause issues.

@DuLANGMondeFOREVER - Would you believe I've never seen that program? It's something my sister called me as a teenager and it stuck in my mind.

I feel that I was being vilified because I'm a woman wanting sex with my husband either while pregnant or after childbirth. Add on top that I wanted to go back to work within a year while my husband looks after the kids surely makes me a man

I feel thats not true...at all, i agree with grabthars

My writing style is what it is because of my career essentially - I communicate with people all over the world and using gendered pronouns can cause issues.

I use ungendered pronouns for people of unknown sex, and people in general. That's normal. Doing so for specific people of known sex -especially in the context of close relationships and sexual acts - is not at all usual and as you've found can cause issues as it comes over as merely obfuscatory. As though there's an 'angle'.

Good communication is about clarity.

Look, if you'd used said "I'm a woman who wants more sex than her husband and went back to work while he stayed home" no one would have batted an eyelid. No one was shaming you for not following gender norms. But when you invoke male gender norms and use neutral language, people are going to assume you're male. Saying that they shouldn't assume that is just naive.

Imagine you read a post that said "person A had been out watching the football and drinking with the lads all evening, came home and screamed at person B for not having dinner ready on the table. Person B was upset because they'd been busy all day looking after the children." You would assume that person A was male and person B was female. Does that mean that you're "shaming" women who have male friend and watch football, or perpetuating sexist tropes? Obviously not. You would assume this because you understand what male pattern behaviour looks like. Saying that we shouldn't assume the sex of the participants in this scenario is basically saying that we should pretend men and women are both equally likely to behave in certain ways. We should pretend that certain family set ups or patterns of behaviour aren't gendered. It's a form of NAMALT or "women do it to". It's trying to make extremely common sex based power dynamics invisible.

Women are allowed to recognise and interpret certain behaviour patterns as "male type" because often our lives are shaped by being on the blunt end of them. If it turns out that we're wrong (as with you're thread) then so be it, but to act affronted that the assumptions were made in the first place is unfair and disingenuous.

The language needed to discuss this will move on once society moves on. At the moment all neutral language does is obscure the fact that we don't live in a neutral world.

What grabthars said...again

Ive got to go out so I’ll just say i agree with grabthars for the whole of the thread

pattern recognition, generalisation and even stereotyping exist as important survival skills. They can go wrong, but they are integral to being human and a vital tool in navigating the world. They are only a problem if we assume that everyone and every situation must necessarily conform to the pattern/generalised rule/stereotype or if we try and codify them as the way things are or should be for everyone.

Hahaha thanks rufus

Lampooned? That sounds fun! There's a netflix film about that.

Also, Mumsnet really isn’t a neutral place. It’s one of the few parts of the internet that is female focussed and largely female populated, covering a wide range of topics with posters of a wide range of ages and backgrounds.

Some of us aren’t even mothers.

There is nothing wrong with wanting sex during pregnancy and after birth. In fact, lots of women enjoy pregnancy sex, but sometimes male partners can be a little hesitant or even scared, treating us like fragile Faberge eggs. If your partner doesn’t want sec, is it temporary or part of a bigger picture? Funnily, one of the more female dominated parts of Reddit is the subreddit ‘dead bedrooms’. It’s not at all unusual for women to have a higher sex drive than their male partners.
I’ve personally ended relationships over it and eventually it became a very early compatibility check for me, now happily married to a very well suited chap and hoping to get as much in before menopause and old age erectile dysfunction ruins it!

As for going back to work, Mumsnet will give you no arguments about that, but if one partner is to stay at home (or work very part time) while one works full time (whichever way around) have an agreed plan in place for how the finances will work, because that’s where resentment can brew.

My mum used to tape it at night and watch it in the afternoon when ironing.
Joan Ferguson (aka ‘The Freak’) was much scarier than VT!

The square necked denim muumuu type dresses are still my fashion goals.

Bewilderness: Women are not just expected to be nice whilst fighting for our rights, we're expected to be nice instead of fighting for our rights.

The whole story in a nutshell