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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Harry will be on R4 PM shortly!

56 replies

ThinEndoftheWedge · 14/02/2020 17:01

Not sure what time!

OP posts:
Herocomplex · 14/02/2020 18:02

The judges remarks were interesting, the ‘Claimant’s reaction to the tweets was on the outer edges of rationality’

GloGirl · 14/02/2020 18:02

I was so disappointed listening to this. Harry was up against the "Cant' you just be nice?" brigade basically. Like every discussion most people have, which leads to shame, and silence.

This is law that is being fought here - Harry didn't sit down in a tea party and scream in someone's face that they're an abomination. He was discussing, in a public forum - whether or not trans women are women, and whether they should legally be allowed to self ID. And whether men identifying as women causes single sex spaces real harm.

So Evan Davies just repeatedly calling him a bigot in a "gotcha" style interview was just a damn shame. As Harry has said - TRA have been trying to get in legislation by the back door. Taking it to court was bravery.

Did Evan say that Harry was not speaking on behalf of women, or did I just make that bit up?

WiggytheWig · 14/02/2020 18:04

For all of you who thought Evan Davis' interview was disgraceful and bias, you should go to the BBC site and file a complaint. I am of the opinion that Evan Davis can be a good interviewer, but he can also be biased in the extreme and is another interviewer who comes armed with sound bites to damage the interviewee and doesn't conduct an interview properly.

iklboo · 14/02/2020 18:05

Evan Davis was once likened to a 'sinister Teddy Ruxpin'. I think I can see why.

KatvonHostileExtremist · 14/02/2020 18:07

Harry did really well.

What got me was one of the examples Davis used was of harry calling haddock a descriptive term that suits him down to the ground.
How is a guy calling another guy a bastard "transphobic". Harry is a man and so is haddock.

R0wantrees · 14/02/2020 18:20

Its a shame Evan Davies hasnt done any research about Dr Adrian Harrop.

thread:
www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3412316-Dr-Adrian-Harrop-thread-the-fourth-GMC-do-care-have-taken-it-to-the-next-level

Dr Harrop's belief that women must not assert that they are adult human females demonstrated in Sky interview with Posie Parker

placemats · 14/02/2020 18:43

I particularly liked this from the police spokesperson:

'Police are looking for the subtleties.'

RoyalCorgi · 14/02/2020 18:46

I thought Evan Davis's line of questioning was bizarre. Instead of asking Harry about freedom of speech implications he kept banging on about him being anti trans. It was so frustrating to listen to.

iklboo · 14/02/2020 18:47

Police are looking for the subtleties.'

Means 'police are making shit up'

I agree with the judge about the Stasi / Gestapo thought police. People are terrified of being gender critical in case they are arrested, prosecuted or lose their jobs for holding a different yet completely valid opinion to others.

stumbledin · 14/02/2020 19:15

(Have already posted this on the other thread)

I heard it and thought Evan Davis who is woker than woke and always sounds like a sniggering schoolboy who have found himself in the adult world, was going to explode.

As the presenter of the show he felt able to contradict the court ruling and say the tweets were transphobic.

Also interesting that he like other presenters who the moment they are told it is about women's rights bluster and talk over and refuse to acknowledge that point.

stumbledin · 14/02/2020 19:17

Just to add I never understood how Evan Davis ever got on to newsnight, he was totally out of his depth. And now he has dragged PM down to his sulky teenage leval.

For anyone interested in actual news, listen to the news programme that follows at 6pm, where you can actual news and not the tittle tattle of BBC cronies, who presumably are all getting fees.

PhoenixBuchanan · 14/02/2020 19:36

What an extraordinarily bizarre interview. ED's entire line of questioning didn't even address the case, it was "why are you so obsessed with this, why are you so mean?". He was only slightly better in interviewing the policewoman.

Also, according to the policewoman- "Hate stems from insensitivity..." Confused

Melroses · 14/02/2020 19:45

The judges remarks were interesting, the ‘Claimant’s reaction to the tweets was on the outer edges of rationality’

www.judiciary.uk/wp-content/uploads/2020/02/miller-v-college-of-police-judgment.pdf

You can read a few of them in the verdict.

Melroses · 14/02/2020 19:49

Just to add I never understood how Evan Davis ever got on to newsnight, he was totally out of his depth.

I always thought he was lovely. Their looks distract me. I am obviously a bad judge. If you ever see me saying any correspondents on the news are worth watching, ignore me.

Tootsweets23 · 14/02/2020 19:50

God I nearly drove off the M11 while listening to that interview! I'm afraid I'm in the camp that Evan was great as an economics editor, piss poor on newsnight and absolutely terrible on PM. It has become completely unlistenable as he stumbles and bumbles his way through each item.

Such a bizarre line to take that Harry was a weirdo for engaging with this subject. Following that logic no one can tweet on anything in the news that doesn't directly relate to them. So if I bang on about Syria, I'm a weirdo as I'm not Syrian? It was an is a big issue as the government wants (or wanted) to change a piece of legislation and asked the public's opinion.

stumbledin · 14/02/2020 19:59

Melroses - well just to own up, which I probably shouldn't on FWR, but everytime Emma Barnett is on newsnight I cant take her seriously because of her barnet. I cant work out why. Blush

Melroses · 14/02/2020 20:01

I think I have a thing about ears Blush

nauticant · 17/02/2020 11:29

I'm preparing a complaint to go to the BBC about Evan Davis' interview of Harry Miller. I've listened again to the interview and had a look at the High Court judgement and here are my notes in case anyone else is minded to complain.

The essence of my complaint is going to be that Evan Davis went into the interview already with the idea in his head that Miller was “anti-trans”, ie prejudiced against trans people, and the evidence of this is that Davis called Miller “anti-trans” four times, even though Miller explained his position and significantly that Davis' use of the term went against what was in the High Court judgement, see the quotes below. As such, Davis was either speaking from his own prejudice having not checked whether that was in conflict with the judgement or had decided to misrepresent what was in the judgement.

The High Court judgement:

Miller's tweets displayed no "hatred or prejudice to the transgender community"

Miller's "tweets were not targeted at Mrs B [the person who had originally made a complaint to the Police], nor even the transgender community" and he had "expressed the sort of views that are also held by many academics as part of a complex multi-faceted debate".

Before the interview started Evan Davis said Miller had made "anti-trans" tweets. Miller challenged this, Davis said "I think anyone reading your tweets would say you are anti-trans and let's just call a spade a spade". This contradicts the judgement. Miller explained he was not against trans people but was "mocking the idea that it's possible for an immutable characteristic like sex to change just because somebody says so". Davis said "The listener would benefit that from knowing it's reasonable to call them [the tweets] "anti-trans"". This is particularly problematic. Davis is saying that the listener would benefit from his view of the tweets which is in contradiction to the view of the High Court. As such, Davis is misleading the listener.

Other comments by Davis:

"You come across as a bit obsessed about something which you could quite happily ignore ... you're not really debating here."

"you can't pretend ... you are not being anti-trans, of course you are."

Davis used the term "anti-trans" four times in the interview which since this wasn't in the judgement had come from Davis' prejudgement of Miller. This view, contradicted by what was in the judgement, was what Davis had wanted to get across to the audience.

In the interview, Davis referred to Miller's involvement in the debate as "weird". If the interview had been about something else, away from the difficult trans issue, would it be reasonable for an interviewer to refer to someone involved in a debate about proposed legal changes as "obsessed" and "weird"?

Obviously the interview was not compatible with the BBC Charter, particularly the first Public Purpose of the BBC:

"To provide impartial news and information to help people understand and engage with the world around them: the BBC should provide duly accurate and impartial news, current affairs and factual programming to build people’s understanding of all parts of the United Kingdom and of the wider world. Its content should be provided to the highest editorial standards. It should offer a range and depth of analysis and content not widely available from other United Kingdom news providers, using the highest calibre presenters and journalists, and championing freedom of expression, so that all audiences can engage fully with major local, regional, national, United Kingdom and global issues and participate in the democratic process, at all levels, as active and informed citizens."

R0wantrees · 17/02/2020 12:28

nauticant
Ive copied your complaint of bias to this thread:
www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3296433-BBC-Bias-Collecting-Examples-here

Languishingfemale · 17/02/2020 12:35

nauticant
That is excellent - well done. It is so exhausting having to unpick all the inherent bias from men like Davis but you've nailed it so clearly. I keep complaining when the BBC describe gender as a protected characteristic - and by reporters commenting on the Equality Act fgs. I always get a dismissive 'sorry not sorry' response ... and it's always repeated.

nauticant · 17/02/2020 13:21

Thanks. I was going to submit it online but the BBC complaints webpage has a limit of 2000 characters. That's nowhere near the amount needed for a detailed complaint. If they want to do this by post, then we can do it by post.

I'd just printed off my enhanced version off as a letter when the hard drive of my laptop suddenly and completely failed. It's now junk. However, I do have the consolation it waited to fail until I had a hard copy of the complaint in my hand.

GloGirl · 18/02/2020 10:48

Brilliant message. I went to complain at the weekend but just froth came out and I decided to leave it for now till I was more sensible. I am feeling a bit more reasoned after reading that. I felt a bit sorry for Harry who having won ended up being called a bigot on a show that ought to know better.

BovaryX · 18/02/2020 11:46

nauticant
Absolutely brilliant, good for you. I haven't listened to it, but the descriptions on here sound dire in terms of bias of interviewer. This quote from judgement seems relevant. It's great that you are writing to the BBC.

The evidence of Professor Stock shows that the Claimant is far from alone in a debate which is complex and multi-faceted. Mrs. B profoundly disagrees with him, but such is the nature of free speech in a democracy. Professor Stock's evidence demonstrates how quickly some involved in the transgender debate are prepared to accuse others with whom they disagree of showing hatred, or being transphobic when they are not, but simply hold a different view

jhuizinga · 18/02/2020 12:02

Nauticant - I complained to the BBC at the weekend about the ED interview, very much along the same lines as you. I'm awaiting a response with interest. There were some interesting comments in Twitter immediately after the interview to which ED responded so the complaints won't come as a surprise to him.

nauticant · 18/02/2020 12:11

I did actually say in my complaint there were plenty of comments on twitter after the broadcast saying things in line with my complaint. That is, there was widespread consternation. I did hint that now might not be the best time for the BBC to be losing the trust of the public.

Listening to the interview is worth doing. The bias comes off the interviewer in waves. It's the first item after the introduction:

www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/m000f7yk