Fawcett defend Women's Place UK

[wellbehavedwomen]

Sam Smethers, the chief executive of the Fawcett Society, said: “Trans people are targeted with violence, abuse and threats and so are women who speak out about the need to defend women-only spaces and sex-based rights. Women’s fear of male violence is real and justified. For reasons of women’s privacy, dignity and safety the need for single-sex spaces remains. But trans people’s human rights must also be recognised and their needs must also be met. The only way forward is for both sides of this issue to be heard with mutual respect. Characterising Women’s Place UK in this way misrepresents them and is fundamentally unhelpful. It is time to move this agenda forward.”

Gosh, Fawcett. I didn't know you still had it in you. I'm sad to be surprised that a major feminist org (and one that had my standing order until a year or two ago, too) is admitting that women do in fact have sex-based rights, including the right to organise and the right to define what their own class actually means. But the fact is, Jess Phillips was deemed a hateful transphobe for far milder words than those, two years ago, and this statement will cause apoplexies of rage. I think the reality of what this ideology means for women has been spelled out by this pledge, in a way no actual feminist can continue to ignore. Fawcett are still not one of the shero organisations who actually bothered to attend Women's Lib 2020. But this gives me some hope that they may be brave enough to do so at the next.

Nothing about us without us. Better late than fucking never.

I note that "three thousand people have signed our pledge in two days! Those who disagree with us are just a small group of transphobes!" Golly gosh. Twitter started suppressing '#expelme' when it got to 20 thousand in a matter of hours. And they've been deleting likes on JK Rowling's tweet for months, to hold them at just over 200 thousand. Who knows how many she'd have otherwise? Well. Twitter do, but on the evidence I doubt they'll be sharing the info any time soon.

The fact the Guardian is reporting like this at all is also progress.

The penny is finally dropping that women are human beings, too, and males don't get to tell us who a woman is, and what we are allowed to say.

But in other scenarios such as changing rooms it would be difficult to police without being able to challenge someone to show evidence of their sex.

When challenging a masculine-appearing person in a women's space, women only get it wrong when the person is also female. Never when the person is male. Very few women do not pass as women.

Women must be entitled to challenge possible males in women's spaces.

My post doesn't make sense.

Occasionally a masculine woman in a female space is challenged, but a very short interaction makes it clear that she is a woman. This is never the case with a male in a female space. Regardless of appearance, surgery, voice coaching, males do not pass upon interacting.

So single-sex policy would be very easy to police, as it has been since time immemorial.

Please don't capitulate on this statement Fawcett!

Occasionally a masculine woman in a female space is challenged, but a very short interaction makes it clear that she is a woman.

Absolutely. Plus, I have never met a butch lady who wasn’t acutely aware that her masculine appearance occasionally spooked other women. They’ve always been happy to reassure.

It's a straw in the wind. It tells us which way the wind is blowing. Given the reality that they would never have dared say this even a year ago, I think it shows how much things have begun to move. They've openly said that women and trans people are two groups, which is exactly what Jess Phillips was monstered over, because it doesn't concede to TWAW.

As has been mentioned by a PP, they're seen as the respectable, cuddly face of feminism. And so seeing this on the Guardian, from an org like Fawcett, will mean more left leaning people will start looking into it all - and we know what they will find, once they do.

Doesn't look like they plan to recant any time soon, either. They're tweeting to draw attention to this newly acknowledged position.

If Fawcett are starting to hint that gender critical feminism doesn't make you transphobic, then the dam is breached.

It's quite good but it misrepresents (grossly exaggerates) the scale of the threat trans women actually face in Britain today (and doesn't state that any threat they do face comes from men!) It's a start but still very wishy washy and divorced from reality.

We're a long way in society from where we need to get to: where people admit that there isn't such a thing as a female spirit housed inside men's bodies.
Right now most people who haven't thought it through are still at the chanting mantras stage. But you can see the fatigue setting in, with people gradually going, fuck it, I can't keep pretending one minute longer.

I've watched Fawcett's tweets have an embarrassingly tiny and ever dwindling response over the last year. Most of their responses tend to be GC ripostes. Every time they claim to represent women, it's pointed out that they won't admit what a woman is. We know they know. They know we know they know. It's a bloody big strain to keep relentlessly pretending when you know your audience sees through you and you also know you're talking utter wank.

I reckon there must be a terrible internal pressure building in a lot of people right now, getting ready to blow that geyser.

Right now it's more permissable to deny people have a soul, than it is to deny the existence of female souls in men.

It's easier to say 'there is no such thing as god' than it is to say 'there is no such thing as trans'.

This extreme deity status cannot prevail.

This is not an endorsement of WPUK but it is an endorsement of having the debate:

The only way forward is for both sides of this issue to be heard with mutual respect.

We know why the tras clung to #NoDebate for so long. The more organisations reverse-ferret just enough to say 'let's stop yelling at them and calling them names long enough to properly listen to what they are saying', the less #NoDebate is a tenable position.

And when we get to have the debate, genderism collapses like a house of cards. Every time.

I'm not grateful. I'm still outraged by how badly the Fawcett Society have sold out women and girls. This is a welcome statement though, this is progress. If enough organisations that identify as being on the side of women do just this much then we have nailed it.

No negative responses to their tweet so far....

Interesting.

Actually, forget I said that. I see there are some I can’t see!

Gotta love t**fblocker!

They're terrified of being called bigots. They're framing it with desperate care on that basis.

However awful it is, that in 2020 a feminist organisation is scared of saying women should be allowed to discuss what a woman is, it's a damn sight better than 2018, when no establishment-approved group would have dared say any such thing.

It's also worth remembering that if you don't hedge the statements in this way, people who just blanket assume that TWAW is the acceptable, kind, progressive stance will probably not be open to thinking about it further. They're Fawcett, and Guardianistas will pay attention to them, and their careful framing this as being respectful of all sides will encourage continued trust of their brand, amongst exactly the people we need to become convinced. That matters.

Just to say I agree with everyone’s posts and you’re all great. LangInSpace that’s a very cheering thought about just this much. You’re right.

I never really heard of them. Gonna have a google.

Them seem a bit wishy washy

Anyway will,google

I had left money to Fawcett Society in my will. Been meaning to update and change it, maybe Justice for Women instead. Fawcett Society are just professional fence sitters, I'd rather my money go to an organisation that actually does stuff and makes a material difference to women's lives when I'm gone.

Yes JellySlice this is a great question to want an answer to...
"What rights do you think trans people lack, Fawcett Society?"

Not sure I'm ready to dig out my Fawcett "this is what a feminist looks like" t-shirt just yet,...not when you see the terrible bullying flack WUPK and assorted speakers such as Linda Bellos, Raquel Rosario Sanchez, Doc Stock, Selina Todd, Meghan Murphy, Maya Forstater & countless others... are getting for speaking out.

Courage is calling Fawcett Society, been calling for quite some time now, can you meet the call for action I wonder 😒

Courage is calling Fawcett Society

Yes!

It was the Fawcett Society that helped peak transed me years ago - back in the Dittany days. When they fell (and they fell early), I finally saw what she saw.

Ah, Dittany. . Dittany kindled my feminist awakening. I miss her.

Courage is calling

Isn't it just? Well said.

What rights do you think trans people lack, Fawcett Society?"

I'm going to be awkward here. I wish trans people all the best in pursuing their rights and whatever else they want to seek as a group. But that's their business and their issue. My focus is women's rights, maintaining and preserving what has been established in law for good reason, and those reasons have not changed or gone away. In fact they've worsened. And obviously no one's rights should be lost or dismantled as an impact from another government or social agenda, because that's just wrong and insane.

So Fawcett society, how do you plan to meet womens rights? Look at your core brief. And I do expect you to be clear on what women are.

I wish trans people all the best in pursuing their rights and whatever else they want to seek as a group. But that's their business and their issue. My focus is women's rights, maintaining and preserving what has been established in law for good reason, and those reasons have not changed or gone away. In fact they've worsened. And obviously no one's rights should be lost or dismantled as an impact from another government or social agenda, because that's just wrong and insane.

That's just beautifully put.

Persuade your own rights - but you can’t take mine.

this is progress. If enough organisations that identify as being on the side of women do just this much then we have nailed it.
Yes that's it. Once the space & time & sensible listening is given to the discussion we will have nailed it.
It's a really good sign. Another sign. Keep pulling. Things are shifting. Sophie walker has also tweeted about this today, in support of wpuk. A few key voices saying 'it's OK, this conversation needs to be had' will make all the difference.

Well, maybe. I just note that the Scottish govt finally admitted there was a debate to be had, nd launched their new ' consultation' on GRA reform etc. From what I've seen so far, it's meaningless. A slight delay, then they plan to just merrily carry on as before.

They are just hoping to skip it through when a bigger crisis pops up and hope that no one is looking. Then there will be many cases of women finding themselves on the sharp end in didn’t know that!’.

If we give them what they want - what will they want next?