Fawcett defend Women's Place UK

[wellbehavedwomen]

Sam Smethers, the chief executive of the Fawcett Society, said: “Trans people are targeted with violence, abuse and threats and so are women who speak out about the need to defend women-only spaces and sex-based rights. Women’s fear of male violence is real and justified. For reasons of women’s privacy, dignity and safety the need for single-sex spaces remains. But trans people’s human rights must also be recognised and their needs must also be met. The only way forward is for both sides of this issue to be heard with mutual respect. Characterising Women’s Place UK in this way misrepresents them and is fundamentally unhelpful. It is time to move this agenda forward.”

Gosh, Fawcett. I didn't know you still had it in you. I'm sad to be surprised that a major feminist org (and one that had my standing order until a year or two ago, too) is admitting that women do in fact have sex-based rights, including the right to organise and the right to define what their own class actually means. But the fact is, Jess Phillips was deemed a hateful transphobe for far milder words than those, two years ago, and this statement will cause apoplexies of rage. I think the reality of what this ideology means for women has been spelled out by this pledge, in a way no actual feminist can continue to ignore. Fawcett are still not one of the shero organisations who actually bothered to attend Women's Lib 2020. But this gives me some hope that they may be brave enough to do so at the next.

Nothing about us without us. Better late than fucking never.

I note that "three thousand people have signed our pledge in two days! Those who disagree with us are just a small group of transphobes!" Golly gosh. Twitter started suppressing '#expelme' when it got to 20 thousand in a matter of hours. And they've been deleting likes on JK Rowling's tweet for months, to hold them at just over 200 thousand. Who knows how many she'd have otherwise? Well. Twitter do, but on the evidence I doubt they'll be sharing the info any time soon.

The fact the Guardian is reporting like this at all is also progress.

The penny is finally dropping that women are human beings, too, and males don't get to tell us who a woman is, and what we are allowed to say.

Yes, it's a very, very cautious step towards accepting that feminists maybe shouldn't be burned at the stake.

As Kantastic says, though, it's enough to damn them in the eyes of the TRA movement, which, it is becoming clearer and clearer, cannot countenance the merest mention of 'women's rights'.

Very much agree with responding to a changing of mind with good grace. If we don't do that it will lead to greater entrenchment.

Oh that’s made me very hopeful - a baby step forward is huge when they’ve been running in the opposite direction for a few years

I cancelled my direct debit to them nearly two years ago, also explaining why. They didn't care. This is 'too little, too late' for me too.

I'm very pleased she has said it. It's not an endorsement of wpuk as such, but it does acknowledge that this conversation has to be had, that concerns raised are not motivated by transphobia, and that the needs of both groups have to be balanced. I will wait & see if fawcett are helpful in making the discussion go forward sensibly now, but I am certainly pleased that the ceo has said it.

Twitter started suppressing '#expelme' when it got to 20 thousand in a matter of hours. And they've been deleting likes on JK Rowling's tweet for months, to hold them at just over 200 thousand. Who knows how many she'd have otherwise? Well. Twitter do, but on the evidence I doubt they'll be sharing the info any time soon.

Whoah, where did those facts and figures come from? Not to doubt you but I'd love to have receipts for that little bundle to show to doubters.

I think that once this nightmare is over and recognised as the scandal and sexist backlash that it is, there will be time enough to draw a distinction between those women, men and organisations who bravely declared the emporer naked, and those who only turned with the turning tide.

For now, though, I will celebrate each and every pair of eyes opened and each and every organisation which acknowledges sex as the basis of women's oppression and the rightful basis of women's protections.

So from me, it's well done to the Fawcett Society

The government has delayed publication of its long-awaited decision on changes to the Gender Recognition Act, but it is expected to make a call on whether to push ahead with allowing people to legally self-identify their gender as soon as next month. Liz Truss, the trade secretary and women’s and equalities minister, is leading on the policy.

Didn't notice this little nugget at the end of the article on first reading. I thought I'd read somewhere else that the whole thing had been kicked into the long grass/put on ice etc?

I hope the decision is to NOT push ahead, but anything is possible at the moment. Hopefully the recent sunlight will help in the decision and if it goes against changes I hope the government is braced for the onslaught

@thirdfiddle I'm not on Twitter - the rage is too much, really - so I lurk, and can't remember all the places I've seen discussion on the JK Rowling 'like' removals. I just went to @MForstater and dug hers up, with comments from people who say the same has happened. That was relatively quick to do:

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It's a definite thing. I've seen allusion to it in a load of places. Screencaps from the days after the tweet show it was then slightly over 205,000, and it's floated below and back to that level ever since. It's happened to some very well known people in the GC community (Glinner, Maya etc) as well. Seems a bit of an own goal there! They should probably tweak their logarithms to avoid blue ticks, Then again, blue ticked likes make a post more popular, don't they, simply due to follower numbers?

This was from last night discussing the #expelme hitting 20k in a matter of hours, and Twitter deboosting it.

People here were also saying today that Twitter was splitting the hashtag from the words, to stop it trending, so they'd added an extra l to 'expel' to circumvent. I've not seen that happening myself, so didn't comment on it, but if you ask I'm sure you'll be given examples. #expelme was the top trend when I went to sleep last night. The pledge, not so much. Might be worth digging around for that one, too, if it's receipts you're after?

crikey, that really is shockingly brazen. I'm not on twitter either, CBA with the blocking thing and don't like the format anyway.

If the decision is to 'push ahead', then #expelme will have been the first dribble in the dam of all hell breaking loose.

That way divisiveness, furious rows and protests, marches, women's resistance, compensation claims and escalating court cases and evidence lies. The gloves will come right off and it's going to be hell on toast. And it's going to add yet more divisiveness and civil war just as Brexit starts to bite.

'The only way forward is for both sides to be heard in mutual respect'.

Not just heard: their view points treated with mutual respect. Which will mean the only option is third spaces, so that trans needs AND female needs can be equally met and respected.

Only way this will ever be resolved is for the govt to have the nerve to ring fence women's rights as a sex class, and their spaces, and that while everything and anything else can be provided, gold plated if necessary, in addition, women's facilities cannot all be taken away from women and given to males until those males are absolutely positive women have nothing left at all of their own. And withstand the almighty tantrums and howls of how allowing women to have any stuff is killing those males.

It's not user friendly, is it? And it amplifies rage so much.

Sorry @Michelleoftheresistance, cross posted - and completely agree.

Better late than never. Agree that space must be given for these people and organisations to find a way back to supporting women. I understand how betrayed people feel. The 50/50 parliament thing was jaw dropping, but at least they didn't blithely agree that 100% male was fine as long as 50% identified as women, unlike Sal Brinton, Maria Miller et al.

Michelle
I don’t actually think third spaces is a realistic outcome. Yes for services such as prisons where the perpetrator has no decision on which estate they are housed in. But in other scenarios such as changing rooms it would be difficult to police without being able to challenge someone to show evidence of their sex.
There would be a level of trust required. And I don’t trust anymore. I do not give my consent to males in female spaces. And I don’t care that women have turned a blind eye out of politeness for years. I don’t consent.
The AGPs and abusers do not want a third space. They want the validation of our space.
We should be campaigning to repeal the GRA. It serves no purpose for women.

I think they're a straw in the wind.

Fawcett are pretty influential in Whitehall/Govt circles. Many would look to their view as a good guide to decent thinking about women’s issues, in the same way as to Stonewall re: LGBT

But in other scenarios such as changing rooms it would be difficult to police without being able to challenge someone to show evidence of their sex.

It's a fair point. And yet it's also the point used by gender ID extremists to say that female people must surrender their spaces and the organisations turning everything gender neutral to the massive disadvantage of women: too difficult to stop them, have to let it happen.

I think if everyone has the choice of their sex space and the third space whatever that's called, then there will be those who will protest and fight into female spaces on principle. But females in there will simply be able to do what they've always done and seek help in getting that person out. It will become known that those boundaries are there, women will be empowered to maintain their spaces and yes, it would take time and mess to re establish boundaries and stand up to those determined not to permit female people rights. It will involve re establishing respect for female people's rights and boundaries. The same way I'd expect anyone forcing their way into a trans only group or space to be confronted with effective boundaries and respect for the right to meet/ have those spaces enforced. It's about insisting that equal standards must be extended to females.

But the only other option is to roll over and female people withdraw from public life. I'm not up for that.

I think if everyone has the choice of their sex space and the third space whatever that's called, then there will be those who will protest and fight into female spaces on principle. But females in there will simply be able to do what they've always done and seek help in getting that person out. It will become known that those boundaries are there, women will be empowered to maintain their spaces

Agree with this. I think this is the only viable way out of this mess.

Yes I see what you say. But we have been told again and again that de facto self id has been taking place for years and women have accepted it by either not noticing (as if) or by being too timid or intimidated to object to it.
A big part of this movement is validation. I can't see how a third space removes that element. Sure, the old fashioned transsexual who may have had a blind eye turned in the past MAY use the third space (I doubt it). But challenging AGPs and abusive men will be our responsibility or the responsibility of the 18 year old on reception.
For me it is simple, two spaces, male and female, no exceptions.
I am not as knowledgeable as many of the brilliant women on FWR but I am not prepared for my boundaries to be breached further. I don't want men (regardless of stage of transition or 'legal falsehood') in mine or my daughter's spaces.

I want to campaign for the GRA to be removed from statute. Its purpose has been served and this madness has gone on long enough.

Also agreed. Those who refuse third spaces highlight the real motivations of those who insist on access to women and girls when vulnerable - their own validation or for other "reasons". Just as the recent Centre Parcs thread demonstrated.
As the population - parents in particular - become alert to the removal of safeguarding for children then third spaces will become essential.

I thought Fawcett were a completely lost cause but maybe I was wrong.

Says something when this half hearted ‘defence’ is the best women can expect.
No doubt their office will be getting death and rape threats tomorrow :/

Well I'm going to wait a couple of days to see if the usual cowardly and grovelling apology is issued first...

I'm glad of this too. But it's pretty half-hearted.

Well I'm going to wait a couple of days to see if the usual cowardly and grovelling apology is issued first

I'm thinking the same.