Maya's case, #expelme, my case against Girlguiding and a Court of Precedent!

[KatieAlcock]

Bear with me as I'm very much not a legal expert and I really hope that my solicitor isn't going to tell me I've written something wrong! This is an update on my case against Girlguiding for expelling me (see what I did there) for my beliefs that men and boys cannot change into girls and women.

Wheels turning slowly in the background

I've been waiting... and waiting... and waiting to be able to give you all an update. I can finally tell you something but it's still not a finished story!

Maya Forstater, who has been appealing her dismissal on grounds of her gender critical beliefs, lost her case against her employers but has now lodged an appeal (Mumnet link rather than her funding link for safety's sake: www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3805218-Maya-appealing )

You probably don't know the ins and outs but the Employment Tribunal is not what's called a "binding precedent" - another court can independently come to a different decision. So, though this decision is indicative, it's not binding over the court my case would be held in.

After Maya lost her case, Girlguiding told us that since my belief case is so similar to hers, we should withdraw my case. We declined to do so; because Maya is appealing her appeal will be held in a higher court than my case. This means that if Maya's appeal is successful, it is binding to the court that my case would be held in.

Confused? I am as well but Maya's appeal is really hopeful both for her obviously, but also for my case.

This is going to be a long haul, though. Maya's appeal is some way off and we can't make any firm plans for my case till after that. Please share, Tweet, anything you can think of - please do use the hashtag #expelme

I have also asked again if Girlguiding will allow me to accompany my daughter to meetings, outings and sleepovers, and they have again not made any concession. This is massively disappointing to me and to my daughter, and is obviously extremely hard to explain to her and to her friends and their parents.

As an aside it was SO GOOD to meet so many of you at the WPUK meeting, including some current and former Guiding people.

Well done for not letting them bully you into backing down. I could be wrong, but I’m wondering, by the fact that they’re trying to talk you out of defending yourself, that they are getting a bit worried. Between Maya, Glinner and you, things are being brought to the public attention that have been previously hidden. They don’t like that.

Thank you for the update. I’m sorry that GirlGuiding are still ignoring the Equalities Act and not acting in the interests of the girls they were set up to help. Is it a charity? Just wondered if it has changed it’s articles to state that it is now for girls and boys?

Good luck and well done for keeping on.

Is it a charity? Just wondered if it has changed it’s articles to state that it is now for girls and boys?

It is (the patron is HM Queen) and it has not.

My previous update (that's Her Maj in her uniform) is here.

medium.com/4th-wave-feminism/a-year-ago-i-was-removed-from-girlguiding-d72f0e9f9692

(Oooooh look it's been categorised under 4th Wave Feminism! I didn't know that!)

I could be wrong, but I’m wondering, by the fact that they’re trying to talk you out of defending yourself, that they are getting a bit worried.
Or it could just be cash for lawyers... I'm trying not to read too much into it!

I'm sure this has been suggested to you before, but have you written to Her Maj ?
No stone left unturned, and all that.
Good luck, your OP did make sense

I'm in awe of women like yourself and Maya in not backing down from these crucial cases. I can only imagine the stress and financial toll it takes to endure such long, protracted cases, all the preparations, the appeals etc. You have my support and well-wishers and I contribute when I can.
As you are all too aware, there's so much at stake and the implications would be huge especially as the cases keeping climbing up the courts.
We really are in your debt for taking this on.

Have just worked out our annual census bill. Pretty fucked off that our money is being used so that GirlGuiding UK can persecute its volunteers through the legal system. Good luck, Helen, GC leaders stand in solidarity with you.

Sorry, Good luck Katie!

Everything crossed for you, Katie!

Btw, your article "Young children, reality, sex and gender" is one of the BEST resources I've read in this whole debate. I keep referring back to it.

For anyone who missed it the first time:
medium.com/@katieja/young-children-reality-sex-and-gender-3421f4f165f1

Thank you Grinitch

Jessica their lawyers are VERY expensive. Much bigger guns than in Maya's ET.

Thanks Katie, have dug.

Katie thanks for the update. I don’t understand How GGs insurance policy is valid if they claim they are single sex, yet allow XY people to go on sleepovers with girls. Heaven forbid a girl gets pregnant.....how would GG cope with the fallout? As pp suggested, have you written to Her Maj?

Stay strong, we are all rooting for you.

Thank you, thank you, thank you!

Katie, thank you for carrying on, this is a lot to take on. I know you have legal advice. Are the issues in Maya's case exactly the same as yours? Is there an element of discrimination on disability in yours as well?

I hope Maya's case doesn't go all the way to the Supreme Court, but if it does will you run out of time on yours?

From a selfish, non legal point of view I would like to see this ideology challenged in many different areas as possible, if you need more digging now, let us know.

If any boys want to challenge GGs on the ground of discrimination happy to dig for that too.

Who are GirlGuiding using for legal representation, Katie?

Procrastinator the issues aren't exactly the same, though there's no disability issue. I was discriminated against when I raised concerns about the treatment of individuals with a protected characteristic (a variety of characteristics, actually) so there's also a whistleblowing element.

GG can invite us to withdraw at any stage, and we can decline to do so. I'm not completely sure if the County Court (where my case is) can tell me I'm out of time, though.

Jessica I don't think that's a matter of public record, sorry.

Tracey Brabin backs the Girl Guides:

www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episode/m000f94q/politics-live-12022020

(Go to 1hr 44m)

Katie, you're one of my growing list of heroines/female role models.

So many brilliant women standing up and showing what women are capable of. Very best of luck with this.

Watching this with interest.
It's a very important area that really needs the judgement of a few court cases to set precedent.

I think I posted ages ago commenting that I found it interesting (I was a bit dubious?) that the 'protected belief' was the argument you were going for. Maya's case has certainly clarified that argument (which I can now see has plenty of merit), and has forced a judge to state that believing that sex is immutable and unchangeable is "not worthy of respect in a democratic society".

V best of luck.

Katie, sorry, didn't realise you had already started court proceedings.

I think I posted ages ago commenting that I found it interesting (I was a bit dubious?) that the 'protected belief' was the argument you were going for.
It's not precisely the same, but as you'll have since realised, there's no such thing as discrimination against someone for a protected "fact".
But of course those with other beliefs (Muslim, Hindu, religious Christians and Jews) are also being discriminated against if they cannot share sleeping and changing spaces with those with male bodies.

And people with disabilities who also cannot.