How many women are actually aware of misogyny?

[FleecyMoo]

Am I alone in being repeatedly shocked by encounters with women who don't realise (or perhaps don't want to acknowledge?) that misogyny is a thing? I am a lurker on another predominately female forum and there's a current thread on there where some women appear to be saying that misogyny is just a 'fashionable word' these days but that the concept itself was all over and done with after the 1970's.

Personally, I think that misogynistic views aired in public i.e. online are more overt these days after a bit of a lull where it was somewhat quietened down in public.What makes some women able to see it but not others though?

I'm no academic or activist but I feel so frustrated that women are collaborating in their own oppression and would like suggestions on how I could illumine what's really happening so that mild-mannered, middle-class, middle-aged women like me could help raise awareness?

Some women don’t WANT to see it because then they have to be upset, angry and deal with it all the live long day. It’s a similar thing to women saying a woman was raped because she was out alone/drunk/wearing a short skirt. They’re trying to protect themselves eg I don’t drink so if I heard a woman was on a night out and was raped it would ‘comfort’ me to say oh well she was drunk, she shouldn’t have been so drunk. Because now I can fool myself because I don’t drink I won’t be raped.

However ‘once you pop you just can’t stop’ as soon as they see it, they won’t unsee it, we just have to hope they do eventually see it.

I completely agree with you Dudley but I still wish I could do something that would make them acknowledge what's actually happening and want to challenge it, in however gentle a manner, rather than denying it is even happening at all.

Most of the women I know who don't believe it's a thing are married to misogynistic men - it's truly like they are blinkered to it

This book should be on the school relationship curriculum.

www.goodreads.com/book/show/3179812-loving-to-survive

You can download a free .pdf copy here

www.semanticscholar.org/paper/Loving-to-Survive%3A-Sexual-Terror%2C-Men's-Violence%2C-Graham-Rawlings/335c8abe35407cd5512dfde63a7bec0cc22026eb

FB, I have radicalised my husband over the past couple of decades. He was sceptical in the first year or two but now he is as angry as I am about most issues where women are being erased/put down/threatened etc.

Thanks, itsnotthesame, I will take a look at both of those :)

Because none of us are born feminists. We become feminists when we see women being unfairly treated. None of us want to believe it, because that means meritocracy is bullshit. Stuff is just ascribed to one dodgy situation, to one bad boyfriend. But when the scales fall from your eyes my god its EVERYWHERE.

Regarding disagreements on the extent of misogyny in modern society, I think one contributing factor might be disagreement over whether each specific instance constitutes misogyny. I imagine you'd be hard pressed to find any disagreement that someone screaming at the top of their lungs that "all women are [negative trait]" constitutes misogyny but, equally, more subtle examples, such as supermarkets using tall shelves (given that women are, on average, shorter) might result in less agreement. Additionally, some of the examples of misogyny I've seen cited (e.g. domestic violence) can equally be perceived as the actions of straightforward bad people, rather than expressions of broader hatred of women.

This difference in perception then crosses over into differences of opinion on justifiable action. For example, I'd personally agree that someone making nasty or denigrating jokes about women is misogynistic but I'd disagree that it's actionable misogyny because I don't believe that the state should intervene unless a direct personal threat is made.

Regarding prevalence, I would argue that more people than ever are able to use the Internet to communicate their beliefs and highlight the beliefs of others (both positive and negative). While a nasty conversation at the pub might, at one time, have been overheard by a handful of people, the same nasty conversation is now accessible to 3.5 billion people and, equally, all their nasty conversations are visible too.

because that means meritocracy is bullshit

This is another fascinating aspect to me, is equality of outcome or equality of opportunity more important and does a system that results in one identifiable group being disadvantaged automatically make it discriminatory (and, if not, how is that distinction made)?

I think some misogyny is still so ingrained in society that it's virtually unnoticeable until someone points it out.

And even though I’m now certain it exists, and that some men treat women worse, in many individual cases it’s hard to be certain. A survey was carried out in my profession a couple of years back, which confirmed what I had long suspected: that women were treated worse, both in terms of offered wages and offered promotion. But until I saw those results, I would have been hard pushed to prove it as most times direct comparison isn’tvpossible.

And of course, if you are justifiably angry, then you’re a crabby old bag. Given the deniability I mention above, I wonder if some women would deny misogyny exists as they have bought into the lie that stating it will mean they’re bitter.

It annoys me that I’m bitter about it... but I have no solution. It must be peaceful to pretend it’s not happening.

but that the concept itself was all over and done with after the 1970's.
Always interesting if you view something made in the seventies, compared with something made recently and set in the seventies -- the racism/homophobia/sexism usually toned-down quite a bit, and 'the past' made to look not quite as bad as it was the first time round!

But then I had to stop watching things like Montalbano because I could no longer stand the constant overt sexism.

So, although things have improved a lot in some ways, still not a solved problem, and still an awful lot of rose-tinted specs when it comes to recalling just how bad it was at the time, whether that was sexism or homophobia. Sometimes it feels like it has just gone underground, in terms of people more reluctant to say stuff that is overtly sexist/homophobic/racist, but that doesn't necessarily stop them acting in ways that are sexist/racist/homophobic. Appearance rather than substance in some cases I fear.

I am one the people you are talking about OP. So enlighten me. I have never been treated differently (that I noticed) than men. Same career opportunities, same pay, same conditions. What am I actually looking for?

I'm probably one of the women you're annoyed at. I don't feel like I'm being oppressed, I've never ever felt oppressed. I'm just not seeing this daily onslaught of misogyny that you're seeing.

Lollybee - even if you haven't been treated differently, surely you have heard of the gender pay gap, sex discrimination, rape culture...do you not think they exist?

lollybee and InCinemasWednesday , you do know that misogyny still exists when it's directed at other women, not just you, right? It's hard enough to believe that you have never had a single instance of misogyny directed at you, never mind that you've also never seen it directed at another woman.

So you've never seen sexist and disrespectful language used to a woman? Never known a woman be badly treated in a relationship by a misogynist man? Never seen examples of young girls being treated like sex objects or sexualised from a young age? Never seen women in the publuc eye constantly judged over what they wear instead of the job they are doing? Never known a woman who was sexually assaulted? Never known a woman who was treated badly by an employer because of anything to do with her being a woman? Righty ho.

The MN relationships board alone is enough evidence that misogyny is alive and well.

Heard of them, just never encountered them personally. I don't know anyone who has been subject to sex discrimination, don't know anyone who gets paid less just because they are female. Don't really know what rape culture refers to (sorry). Does it mean like India where there is a lot of rape? Or does it mean like middle East where some think its OK to rape?

The thing is, most people in general aren't bothered about something until it actually impacts them in some way. This is true regardless of sex or background or political leaning. And it's understandable - there are only so many hours in a day and as humans we have to prioritise our finite energy on what really matters to us. For most people that's their jobs, family and hobbies. If it doesn't directly impact you, then there's no real point in getting worked up about it or spending a lot of time thinking deeply about it - whatever it might be.

Many overt signs of sexism and misogyny have been addressed via legislature and general shift in culture. Women are allowed to work and pursue further education, have their own assets, vote, and can access most spaces. There are very few areas where women are not allowed.
Of course there are more subtle types of discrimination and more hidden types of prejudice and bias and these will be a lot harder to tackle.

The vast majority of women are not feminists or interested in feminist concerns because for many it's not something they've had to think about. Their lives are probably generally fine and any incidents can be chalked up to an unfortunate experience. It's pretty exhausting to be always engaged in any topic so unless there's some tangible detriment, most women won't see the point in worrying about concepts like misogyny.

Thing is, some women seem to look everywhere for misogyny without considering the other side of the coin, which is that loads of women are privileged by having rich husbands who pay for everything and slog it out doing long hours at work whilst they go shopping and have lunch with friends.

From lurking on here I know that the 'lady that lunches' isn't a myth. There was a huge thread on it recently with loads of women posting how lucky they were to have a rich husband and be able to spend their time as they wish. The reverse situation is extremely uncommon.

Does it mean like India where there is a lot of rape? Or does it mean like middle East where some think its OK to rape?
Yes but not just this. In the UK examples could be; shockingly low conviction rate compared to other crimes, light sentences for rape, downplaying the seriousness of the crime, women being told to avoid being raped rather than men being taught it is wrong, rape used as entertainment in films (not just porn which is bad enough), rapists in the public eye being forgiven and returning to high paid roles while women are stigmatised. Rape culture is basically about the way society facilitates and excuses rape.

I completely agree with you Dudley but I still wish I could do something that would make them acknowledge what's actually happening and want to challenge it, in however gentle a manner, rather than denying it is even happening at all.

I like to share manwhohasitall on twitter & Facebook. The comments are always great too.

manwhohasitall "Highlighting the sexism, stereotypes and bias women experience everyday by imagining a world where men are treated in the same way society treats women."

I think that people often interpret these things differently. Is a man using sexual language to say nasty things about a woman an example? Maybe, but some might say it's the equivalent of a woman using disparaging language about a man, which also happens quite frequently. The pay gap - that's not something people do have unified opinions on.

But there are also questions about what would constitute equality or respectful treatment. Some people argue for example for things like maternity leave so women can compete with men in the workplace. But another POV might be that everyone should be treated the same, and that differences that arise from biological role are just that - differences.

I will also say that the worst women haters I have ever known were actually haters generally. Asshats. Is the issue really about women then, or other things?

My general feeling is that most women don't actually expect society to have no differentiation between women and men, or identical outcomes. That's not what they are looking for, in fact they may think that is a crazy idea. So differences aren't always going to be interpreted as disadvantages.

Does it mean like India where there is a lot of rape?

20% of women in England and Wales have experienced rape or serious sexual assault. Is that not a lot in your books?

I am a bit embarrassed to say really, but as little as 2 years back, I was one of those 'things used to be bad for women but alls great now!' women. Ignoring the way many men behaved and instead, for some reason, pretending everything was great, maybe as if we pretend long enough, things get better? IDK the thought process..seems dodgy now.

The vast majority of women are not feminists or interested in feminist concerns because for many it's not something they've had to think about. Their lives are probably generally fine..
I disagree. It is something they have had to think about, but I think the key thing is going from a set of specific incidents (like treatment of women after miscarriage, or being afraid to go out at night, all relevant examples from my mother), to realising that there is a repeating issue here. Because to do that, you really do have to change your view of what is going on around you totally. It's the realisation that it's not just 'some men', to the whole system, and not just some isolated incidents, but so many that you finally have to admit it's not just an accident...............Women can have 'feminist' concerns without actually calling themselves a feminist.

*Does it mean like India where there is a lot of rape?
*

Isn't that generally put down to there not being sex segregated areas? I know rape happens anyway, but am sure this contributes a lot.

Yet people in this country are now breaking down sex segregation...bizaree.