Meet the Other Phone. A phone that grows with your child.

Meet the Other Phone.
A phone that grows with your child.

Buy now

Please or to access all these features

Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Bbc article about filmed rape on pornhub

84 replies

ByGrabtharsHammerWhatASavings · 10/02/2020 09:12

www.bbc.co.uk/news/stories-51391981

Trigger warning - graphic descriptions of sexual violence.

This article has really disturbed me. Her description of her state after the attack, bloodied and beaten, and the police asking her "was it consensual? Was it a wild night gone too far?" And after it was discovered that the footage was on pornhub, how her classmates not only watched it but bullied her over it, with parents telling their sons to stay away from her in case she "seduced them and accused them of rape". This is footage of an unconscious 14 year old beaten to within an inch of her life being violently raped, and people still blamed her and accused her of lying. And how it took so long for pornhub to take the footage down, only when she pretended to be a lawyer. What chance does the victim of revenge porn, or the rape which didn't leave her almost dead, or where their was initially consent have, when even such an extreme and clear example of rape is treated this way?

The thing that shocked me most though is that pornhub still has videos up titled "unconscious teen gets abused" with the justification that it's a "popular fantasy" and "all forms of sexual expression should be allowed". It's so revolting to me that any man could be aroused by that. Without doubt a lot of men who watch porn are watching rape and they just don't give a shit.

I don't know how we come back from this. I was reading an autobiography the other day where the author was describing visiting a porn shop in the 80s, and how the feminist bookshop opposite would put cameras in their window to catch and shame men who went in their. It made me realise that if we weren't able to get a handle on porn back then, when it was actual shops not the Internet, when feminism was united on the issue, when the images of extreme abuse weren't mainstream, how can we ever hope to now? How can we even begin to put the genie back in the bottle? And if we can't - if porn, even extreme violent porn, can't be stopped - then where do we go from here?

OP posts:
Bluewater1 · 10/02/2020 20:13

I really don't understand what ethical porn is?? What does that even mean?

Dervel · 10/02/2020 20:20

@Antibles if someone is flat out lied to that is not their fault at all. However if red lines and deal breakers exist and no attempt is made to clearly express them it’s hardly surprising that more people may find themselves married to those with habits they find personally abhorrent.

You must not have read that far into my posts as I explicitly said if you have a porn habit such should be clearly stated at the outset.

I get when we are in the early days of a new relationship the bonding hormones kick in and our paramours are the best things ever, but if we’re going to build anything approaching a strong foundation it’s crucial a commonality of values is established.

Again it’s ok to have your come to Jesus moment and decide porn is an abhorrent deal breaker, but it will represent a manifest change in the circumstances of the relationship if what was once tolerated is no longer.

If women do not have autonomy to express their own preferences within their own relationships then that is a separate though no less pressing issue. Again I’d urge women to avoid men that gaslight, deceive and do not fundamentally care nor respect them.

ByGrabtharsHammerWhatASavings · 10/02/2020 20:36

I think the thing that's depressing is that its something that even needs to be discussed as a "deal breaker" early in relationships. Lots of things are deal breakers for me, some of them I asked my do about, others I just assumed. So relatively early on we discussed our positions on things like religion, drug use, what would happen in the event of an unplanned pregnancy etc. But I didn't ask him to confirm that he'd never stolen a car, or racially abused someone, or fathered multiple children that he never saw. Those are deal breakers for me, but I tend to assume people haven't done them unless I have good reason to think otherwise, because those are illegal, social contemptible, and uncommon acts. I did ask him about porn use, even though at the time it wasn't a deal breaker for me, because it fell into the first catagory of "personal info" - legal, common, socially normal stuff that we might just happen to disagree on. I want to see a world where women don't have to ask about porn use because it's so rare and socially unacceptable that asking "do you use porn?" would be as weird as asking "have you ever been in prison?" and most people could just confidently assume the answer was no.

OP posts:
ExEUCitizen · 10/02/2020 20:53

It's not just porn. It's the violence involved. If we lived in a world where women and girls were respected any video involving violence in sex would be immediately rejected by any host. As pp's say, there urgently needs to be some questions raised about these pornsites and the material on them.

Goosefoot · 10/02/2020 21:55

But like you say, ideas about porn exist as part of a wider framework of beliefs. Number 1, I would say, is the idea that some men have to use porn or they will cheat, become angry, commit rape, or suffer medically in some way. The idea that it's a physical need rather than a choice seems quite wide spread. I've also read posts where people say their partner justifies it as "not seeing them as real people" as if theyre watching a fiction show and not actual real women. When I've talked to my own partner about it he's come out with stuff about men being "more visual" and therefore other forms of stimulation (like erotic fiction) don't have the same effect. I think the narrative of "choice" and "consent" play a big part too, as people need to hang on to the belief that the women are willing participants. As with prostitution, a lot of people aren't really on board with the idea that money =/= consent.

I think there are a couple of points here I'd like to address.

Porn and men being more visual. I think that is likely true, and I also think that erotic fiction plays much the same role for some women. The written word has quite different implications obviously in that there is no need for actors and such, and I don't think it has the same effect on a wide social level. But I think it's a fair point that it's about creating a fantasy without the real people problems of a relationship, and it's about getting off.

In terms of men will cheat without porn, and that it's "natural" - I think this comes down to the very widely held idea that sex is a need. It's widely accepted as true, and we've totally lost any kind of promotion of or admiration for sexual self-control or abstinence. In adults, it's at best considered to be weird, but often it's seen as pathetic. Unlike many cultures, we have no class of respected roles for single people who are not sexually active, and I think there was a sense that will the advent of the pill, such things were no longer necessary. Everyone could have sex, even if they didn't want kids. Of course in reality, lots of people have no one to have sex with. Soooo, the model doesn't really work as sold.

If we want to challenge that idea though, sex as a need, we need to look at it with a wide lens. It's not just used as a reason for porn it's the rationale behind all kinds of things our society says and does.

As far as consent, I think the consent model, or contract model really, is something that's come out of a certain kind of American legal thinking. To my mind it's wholly inadequate in all kinds of areas. Many many things, most things, are more than a transaction, that is a profoundly debased view of human life and relationship.

Anyway, the difficult bit is that you can't challenge thse ideas without something to potentially

Goosefoot · 10/02/2020 22:12

It probably is a good idea to discuss it, but IME many people don't really discuss all kinds of basic stuff before getting serious.

But I think the situation with porn has changed a lot in recent years, like someone upthread said. I was anti-porn even back in the days of playboy and the odd video, but even so, it really was a whole different kettle of fish. Heck you can see more explicit stuff on HBO than you would in an old copy of Playboy.

Even for men, I think porn gets out of control in their lives in a way they don't expect.

Antibles · 10/02/2020 23:00

Wouldn't it be great if a women saying to her friends "I caught him using porn" had the same reaction as one who said "I caught him cheating"? If a shocked silence fell and everyone said "omg are you OK?" and it was just assumed that the relationship would be over or at least that a huge amount of counselling would be needed to repair things.

^^ This. Instead, women are taught to deny and sublimate that horrible jolt of betrayal. The anger, disgust and disappointment too.

Ex yes I agree it's about the violence, but the degradation, disrespect and objectification as well.

Sagradafamiliar · 10/02/2020 23:02

I felt like crying when I read the article earlier, what that girl went through is hard to imagine. It's just wrong.

Men are porn obsessed these days and don't even attempt to hide it. I'm early 30s and dating in the early days when you literally begin messaging is like this: 'just about to put some porn on, what you up to?' 'what's your fave porn category' 'hi, do you do anal?' It's like they get straight in there and filter out the women who don't fit their requirements and/or think talking about porn on first messaging someone is completely normal.

QuentinWinters · 10/02/2020 23:12

However if red lines and deal breakers exist and no attempt is made to clearly express them it’s hardly surprising that more people may find themselves married to those with habits they find personally abhorrent.
When I met ex H the internet was barely around and webcams certainly weren't. So how was I supposed to know that a habit that at the time I met him involved buying magazines of topless women would evolve into spending thousands on one to one live webcam sex shows? More to the point, how was he meant to know?
My ex H wasn't honest with me about the extent he had got sucked in but I dont think a conversation about boundaries at the start of our relationship would have made a blind bit of difference to the outcome. Because noone could have envisaged then that we would end up where we are today.

QuentinWinters · 10/02/2020 23:14

Because noone could have envisaged then that we would end up where we are today. in respect of the free availability of fairly extreme porn I mean.

I agree with a PP, most music videos would have been banned as porn when I was a teen.

ByGrabtharsHammerWhatASavings · 10/02/2020 23:29

I went to the corner shop last week and there was a "Sunday sport" paper of an obviously naked woman, posed in such a way that you couldn't actually see anything but with a big label that said "she's naked on page 3", right on the bottom shelf right next to the children's fucking magazines! My 3 year old ram over to see the bob the builder comics and it was right there, directly in his eye line. I was furious. I asked the shop assistant to move it out of sight of kids and she just shrugged and said she couldn't, that was its sale spot. Its so sickening but so few people seem bothered.

OP posts:
ByGrabtharsHammerWhatASavings · 10/02/2020 23:31

By "of an aobviously naked woman" I mean "with an obviously naked woman on the front cover"

OP posts:
Antibles · 10/02/2020 23:49

Radio 5 talking about porn right now...not FWR but talking about harms.

bd67thSaysReinstateLangCleg · 11/02/2020 00:16

Goosefoot

How is that working for you, in terms of political traction?

Move the goalposts, why don't you? You asked what the wider beliefs that enable porn are, so I told you. That that truth is unpopular is neither here nor there.

Antibles · 11/02/2020 00:37

sagrada that's horrible.

Men and porn. It's like a toilet that's backed up.

Goosefoot · 11/02/2020 02:33

Move the goalposts, why don't you? You asked what the wider beliefs that enable porn are, so I told you. That that truth is unpopular is neither here nor there

They aren't really though. Most people don't think it's ok for women to be degraded and abused.
That raises the question why it's become something that is so pervasive even though people explicitly don't think that's ok. What is it about people's knowledge or interaction with the media, or their feelings or ideas about sex, that got us to this place?

Some of this stuff is shocking enough that just exposing it might wake some people up, but if we don't look at what changed, it's unlikely that we will be as successful in changing people's thinking.

Part of it is probably the technological change, and that's important. Suddenly the availability of por completely changed. Easy to get, anytime, no one has to know. No ordering brown packages from the back of a magazine. No pretending to look at the sports magazines being eyed by the guy in the convenience store. No slipping into the theatre with other dodgy men or even going to the video store.

What people didn't realise was how quickly, with this kind of exposure to thousands of images, the images stop working. (That's been a failure of understanding in the sexual revolution really, the inability to predict or comprehend that as soon as you make something sexually normative, it first of all becomes expected, and then promptly loses much of its erotic power.)
But this began happening at a hugely accelerated rate with the introduction of internet porn, so the only answer from the point of view of the producers and sellers, the people making the money, was to keep pushing the limits. This actually seems to have alienated some older men, but not so much the younger ones who grey up, cut their teeth sexually, on this kind of material. In a real way many of them are an audience of addicts, and like many active addicts they don't have the insight to recognise it.
The supporting element has been the sex positive movement which is the modern expression of the sexual revolution. Anything is ok as long as there is consent, completely individualistic, sex is transactional. And everyone, even a lot of people who really hate the porn element, are scared to challenge a lot of those views, because they think it will challenge other ideas about sexual freedom as well.

FritzDonovan · 11/02/2020 02:55

Do people not have these conversations prior to getting too involved in a relationship??

Back in the day, when we started going out, it never occurred to me that the nice guy I was seeing would be heavily into porn, because afaik at that stage it was a mag passed around teenaged boys until you got a gf type thing. So no, no conversation was had.

Down the lie a few years, after he discovered internet porn, yes, the conversation was had. Promises were made about not using it anymore.

Another number of years on, his porn addiction was uncovered. So I don't have any faith in that conversation. They'll do it anyway, as "every man does it", "there's nothing wrong with it, because there's no physical interaction", "What you don't know won't hurt you", "Its private", and all the other usual excuses. Bottom line - they enjoy watching it. And until it's seen as the unsavoury and damaging activity it is, most men don't care. So many good points raised on here, but I still feel no further forward dealing with it as a society. Scary stuff for our daughters to contend with.

QuentinWinters · 11/02/2020 07:36

goosefoot brilliant post Star

Flowers fritz. Solidarity fist bump.

MoltenLasagne · 11/02/2020 10:41

I don't think there is much women can do to tackle this tbh - women having red lines on porn when dating will either mean they struggle for dates (possibly worth it but puts lots of pressure on individual women) or men lie and don't even think it's wrong to do so.

What worked in the past was that other men by and large thought that the men who went to dodgy cinemas and porn shops to get porn were sad or weirdos who resorted to porn because they couldn't get women. Out of the choice of having a relationship with an actual woman or using porn, the answer was always the relationship and if not you were considered very odd. I don't think that's the case any more.

bd67thSaysReinstateLangCleg · 11/02/2020 10:53

Most people don't think it's ok for women to be degraded and abused.

A substantial proportion of men do at some level, but they know that admitting to it publicly is unwise. It takes very little for that "decent guy" to become a gang rapist. A quick review of what the Russian Army did to hundreds of thousands of German women and girls at the end of WW2 proves this.

Antibles · 11/02/2020 11:03

Another number of years on, his porn addiction was uncovered. So I don't have any faith in that conversation. They'll do it anyway, as "every man does it", "there's nothing wrong with it, because there's no physical interaction", "What you don't know won't hurt you", "Its private", and all the other usual excuses. Bottom line - they enjoy watching it. And until it's seen as the unsavoury and damaging activity it is, most men don't care.

Totally agree. It's unbelievably depressing. Men just want to see naked women. They are gorging on the unbelievably plentiful trough of internet porn, they're totally unable to control their use of it anymore, they're making themselves sick with it, and they're vomiting on us. I've said similar before, I know, but that's how I feel about it.

Antibles · 11/02/2020 11:16

I think a substantial proportion of men simply think that being female is degrading by its very nature becuase we are the ones that are penetrated. That's why they still reject anything strongly associated with femininity in their culture (or get weird fetishes about it).

Also explains language for being a bad situation: you're fucked, buggered, stuffed, shafted. Someone putting their penis up you is a very clearly victory for them and a defeat for you. Humiliating. Explains homophobia too.

I think that victory-defeat mentality towards women and sex is a significant aspect of many men's psyche. The degradation and objectification of women in porn reflects this perfectly.

Antibles · 11/02/2020 11:20

bd67th yes. Where civilisation breaks down, women are raped in pretty short order.

bd67thSaysReinstateLangCleg · 11/02/2020 12:14

bd67th yes. Where civilisation breaks down, women are raped in pretty short order.

Short of birth striking (a deliberate and principled decision to refuse to bear children, in this case to refuse to bring a daughter into a world where she will treated like dirt and refuse to bear a son who will likely become part of the problem), I don't know what the answer is.

Even then, if we birth strike en masse, they'll take away our contraceptives (see Romania) and ban abortion (see Romania) and rape us (see the whole of human history).

Antibles · 11/02/2020 12:33

We have to ditch them when we discover them using porn. Be the change we want to see, as someone said to me on a previous thread. It gives the message that it's unacceptable and brings back something of the shame surrounding it that is fast vanishing.

Individually, treat it the same way we would treat cheating. Cheating still happens of course but it's socially unacceptable.

Please create an account

To comment on this thread you need to create a Mumsnet account.

This thread is closed and is no longer accepting replies. Click here to start a new thread.