Sex is not binary?

[accessorizequeen]

I'm feeling quite lost in a conversation on another forum (I'd rather not name it). This person said in a discussion that there are no sexes. When I queried this, this was the response. I haven't read all of the citations in this Nature article but I scanned the article.

No, it's false to say sex is entirely binary and that individuals are either 100% female or 100% male.
For a quick summary: "Sex redefined""_
Also, please be careful that you are not conflating intersex with transgender—they are two separate (but occasionally related) conditions. Intersex folks may be cis or trans; trans folks might not have any identifiably intersex traits.

To clarify I didn't actually say sex is binary although I have always thought it is. I didn't mention intersex.

You are either a man or a woman with a DSD condition.

Sex is binary.

Debating with those who argue it is probably a pointless exercise though.

You're probably right. I found the lecture about intersex hard enough to swallow! I found the author on twitter and she said she didn't think sex wasn't binary so it would seem that some people are using the article mistakenly.

Humans are sexually dimorphic, which means that they have traits that skew in one of two directions, typically thought of as masculine or feminine, this is where the concept of the sex binary comes from. The poster is correct to tell you that no human actually has a binary sex though.

Some examples of sexually dimorphic traits might be:

Body hair
Genitals
Secondary sexual characteristics like breasts
Facial hair
Endocrinal systems, hormones etc
Chromosone karyotype

Now some of those dimorphic traits are pretty straightforward binaries, like chromosone karyotype, whilst others are spectrums, like facial hair, the presence of breasts, or how much testosterone you're running on an average day.

They all lean in one direction or another, which is binary, but how far they lean, and in what assortment, is not binary. It's much more complicated.

You can think of a person and their sex as a big spectrum with needles all over the place, some might be smack right on female or on male, and others leaning one way or another to varying degrees.

When we try to define someone's sex we're essentially eyeballing all those needles and trying to take an average, but it would be silly to suggest that someone is just 100% male or female, since there's so much information at play.

When those needles are calibrated in particularly uncommon ways, or ways that prevent the taking of that "easy average", we refer to that as an intersex condition.

The poster is correct to tell you that no human actually has a binary sex though.

In my opinion, that's cock custard I have body hair. I have more facial hair than I used to, possibly down to the menopause I was female at birth. I'm female now. 100%. I'm a woman. The only other option is for me to be male. It's one or the other. Black or white. No shades of grey.

So tedious.
Sex is binary.
There are two gametes - egg and sperm. One type of human makes eggs. Another type makes sperm.
Ask them to name a third sex. Ask them what the gamete for any other sex is called. They won't have an answer to that.

They will, however, know jolly well which of their parents got impregnated and which did the impregnating. And which of the two jobs they would have were they to decide to procreate. And which other of the two types of human they would need to co-opt into the project.

Someone is attempting to blind you with science.

Unfortunately for them they didn't do it well enough and, even though you doubt yourself, your common sense went "Huh!!"

I always want to ask these people how they think babies are created, or whether they know an opposite sex couple who decided to have a baby, and went on to have long discussions about which of them would be doing the ovulating, and the pregnancy and birth bit

X post, Antibles!

Sex is binary. There is no 3rd sex or intermediate state between the sexes that has a reproductive function in nature. That's what a sex is. A reproductive role. Nothing more.

Anomalies occur, as they do in all things - but there is no 3rd role.

I find the term CIS really, really offensive. I shouldn't hove to have a prefix before what I am and that is a Women. For me calling me CIS is like calling me the N word.

@KicktheSpike

I find the term CIS really, really offensive. I shouldn't hove to have a prefix before what I am and that is a Women. For me calling me CIS is like calling me the N word.

I absolutely agree - I do not define others and do not accept this definition of me. I am a woman- an adult human female

@GammonWithAHardR

Humans are sexually dimorphic, which means that they have traits that skew in one of two directions, typically thought of as masculine or feminine, this is where the concept of the sex binary comes from. The poster is correct to tell you that no human actually has a binary sex though.

Some examples of sexually dimorphic traits might be:

Body hair
Genitals
Secondary sexual characteristics like breasts
Facial hair
Endocrinal systems, hormones etc
Chromosone karyotype

Now some of those dimorphic traits are pretty straightforward binaries, like chromosone karyotype, whilst others are spectrums, like facial hair, the presence of breasts, or how much testosterone you're running on an average day.

They all lean in one direction or another, which is binary, but how far they lean, and in what assortment, is not binary. It's much more complicated.

You can think of a person and their sex as a big spectrum with needles all over the place, some might be smack right on female or on male, and others leaning one way or another to varying degrees.

When we try to define someone's sex we're essentially eyeballing all those needles and trying to take an average, but it would be silly to suggest that someone is just 100% male or female, since there's so much information at play.

When those needles are calibrated in particularly uncommon ways, or ways that prevent the taking of that "easy average", we refer to that as an intersex condition.

Sex is binary. People with DSD are either male or female depending, like those who are not DSD, on their sex chromosomes. Humans are 100% male or 100% female.

Oh FUCK OFF at trying to suggest that the amount of body hair you have is somehow suggestive of sex on a spectrum.

It's racist, sexist and unbelievably stupid.

Don't feel bad about getting entangled in this, OP. I know consultant doctors running their own hospital departments who, in a bid to 'be kind', have tried to persuade me that there's an infinite spectrum of sexes depending on each individual's testosterone and other hormone levels in the uterus and later in life.

It does make you despair when clever people with influence and power are spouting this shite.

Do any of you realize how dehumanizing you are being in even debating the existence of non-binary sex? Intersex people exist. It has been documented. To have you debating our very existence or treating us as if we are just a freak occurrence (rare does not equal freakish) is rather off putting.

Read the actual article
www.nature.com/news/sex-redefined-1.16943

Wizzybus no debated whether intersex conditions exist. Of course they do, and they affect both males, and females.

They dont actually make people "inbetween sexes", however. Nor do they make sex a spectrum.

That isnt debate, its medical fact.

In my case it makes me both sexes, so some people would exclude me from women's spaces and some from men's. I wish only for an inclusive and welcoming world for all.

99% of the population of earth have one sex or the other.
Born with female reproductive organs.
Born with male reproductive organs.
1% may have combinations of both due to genetic abnormalities.
Remind the person, that you need both sexs to continue a population.

Wizzybus if your were born intersex then that is different and yes you have to accept that you are not the norm.
A DNA test will 99% of the time always reveal a person's true sex, how ever they choose to dress up their exterior.

Wizzy without going into details about your own condition, can you explain what type of DSDs you mean? Afaik even sex-discordant chimeras can have a normal male or female phenotype

Sex needs to be defined more clearly.

At a cellular level, there is only two types of gametes: male and female. Sperm or egg.
No spectrum here at all.

At a chromosome level, this typically involve two combinations: XY and XX
There are anomalies, but the vast majority of individuals are one or another. And the other combinations still only yield male or female gametes (no third gamete option)

At the individual level, typically you will have the ability (at some point in your life) to produce male gametes, or female gametes (and the type of gametes you can produce will not change, the only thing that changes is that the ability switches on, then off)
Again there can be anomalies (no gametes, or, very rarely, both??), but they're the exception, not the rule (just like some people are born with missing limbs or extra limbs)

Then there's the wider phenotype... Primary sexual characteristics (your genitals) are often clearly male (penis + testicles) or female (vulva + vagina + uterus + ovaries). And this typically matches the gametes you produce.
But sometimes these organ can be malformed, mixed up, duplicated... So for instance, one can produce male gametes (internally) but have female looking external genitals (but no womb/ovaries). And some people may appear to have both sets! (not necessarily fully functional), etc. That's intersex people, they exist, they are quite rare. At the end of the day, still only two types of gametes.

Then there's secondary sexual characteristics, which are ruled by hormones, and quite messy. Hairiness, boobs, voice, height, body fat, temperament, ... All of these can be influenced by hormones such as oestrogen and testosterone. Traditionally these hormones have been viewed as female and male hormones, but that's misleading as males and females produce and need both, just in different amounts. And the amounts varies during life, and across individuals, and the distinction between "anomalies" and "normal variations" is more blurry.
E.g. most females don't have beards... but lots of older women start growing some degree of facial hair once they reach menopause.
That bit could be seen a bit more like a spectrum. But secondary sexual characteristics are not really sex. Plenty of girls fail to grow sizeable boobs (yet can bear children), plenty of lads will grow moobs if they eat too much (yet can't bear children). The only secondary sexual characteristic that remain fairly constant (and a good predictor of the gametes you may produce) is the shape of your pelvis.