Using the word "lady" for a woman, but not "gentleman" for a man

[Blackcountryman12]

I have always been interested in gender issues and feminism and one area I have studied is gender and language. As a male feminist, something I notice is the way people think the word "woman" sounds rude in some contexts, but "man" doesn't.

Because feminism is about equality between women and men, I often cringe when I hear "lady" in situations when "gentleman" isn't used. I'm not saying "gentleman" is never used, but when it is, it is only in certain contexts and often in its true sense ie. "he's a real gentleman". I have never liked this kind of unequal use.

I have heard "lady" and "gentleman" both used in polite contexts and I don't dislike that, but I have often also heard "lady" being used in ordinary conversation, when men are just "man", or "bloke"/chap" and increasingly "guy", which is perhaps the most commonly used Americanism that has come into British English.

I think the way "lady" has replaced "woman" in many situations is a good example of semantic derogation. My least favourite uses are where "lady" is used loosely as a substitute for woman, it can sound way too polite and twee in these contexts, as well as a little odd (you wouldn't call a man a gentleman), and I hate when a girl or young woman is condescendingly addressed as "young lady", I mean a boy or young man would just be called "young man" and not "young gentleman". What is is that people find rude about "woman"? Going back 100 years or more, people actually said "young woman", if you read texts from around that time.

I tend to use lady and gentleman when speaking about people within their earshot, as, "I think this lady/gentleman was waiting first," If someone tries to serve me first.

Likewise to DH or GC, "Shall we let the gentleman/lady with the pram get past?"

But I'm from an earlier generation, of course, so it doesn't ring false to me.

When I first joined the military, they were just changing a lot of words to be sex-inclusive. So they weren't allowed to call the body of troops "men" anymore, as in, "Men, form up!" The older NCOs and officers would sometimes forget but the younger ones had been taught to do it that way. I always thought it was dumb, I'd have just as soon been included in "men" in that context. But the idea of men having a generic quality was going very out of style at that point.

What really annoyed me though was that when they specifically wanted to talk about the women, they always used the word "females". "Females, this is your room" for example.

They had decided not to use the word women as it was seen as possibly being offensive to some of us, but I always felt that "females" made me feel like I was a patient in a veterinary clinic.

What is a "male feminist"?

I say gentleman all the time.

I was just thinking about this the other day. The context was where I was asking one woman in an official capacity to help another woman, something like "Can you sort this woman's ticket out for her?" Saying "woman" felt a bit harsh, whereas "lady" really feels very archaic and unfeminist. Used to come up a lot when children were small - you don't want to say, "Say thank you to the nice woman" so you end up saying "lady". I did adopt the practice of saying "gentleman" rather than "man" to make it equal.

Now I feel as if I've overthought it. I don't suppose it matters in the great scheme of things.

I don't mind "lady" or "gent(leman)" in a service or polite context at all (e.g. at a shop) but, as a woman in a very male dominated profession, can't stand it in a professional context. Nor any of the chivalry stuff. I feel it comes with connotations of "dainty" and "in need of special consideration" and therefore undermines my professional authority.

I especially hate "ladies first" and having doors held open for me - especially by my male - and have taken to responding "Nah, there, age before beauty - so you go first, and not because I'm a woman."

*"especially by my male higher-ups" ...

What is a "male feminist"?

Perhaps a feminist ally who isn't up to date with all issues around gender and language?

No doubt, Errol.

I don't want to derail the thread, but that silly term immediately brings this brilliant spoof to mind.

To quote something, just c&p with an asterisk either side - MN uses simple markup (paired hyphens for strikethrough, caret for italics, asterisk for bold) - which is easy enough when you get used to it but sometimes mangles a post which uses a dashes as punctuation or features high A level grades.

Cheers for letting me know.

What is a "male feminist"?

I suppose it was unneccessary and irrelevant to mention my gender

*When I first joined the military, they were just changing a lot of words to be sex-inclusive. So they weren't allowed to call the body of troops "men" anymore, as in, "Men, form up!" The older NCOs and officers would sometimes forget but the younger ones had been taught to do it that way. I always thought it was dumb, I'd have just as soon been included in "men" in that context. But the idea of men having a generic quality was going very out of style at that point.

What really annoyed me though was that when they specifically wanted to talk about the women, they always used the word "females". "Females, this is your room" for example.

They had decided not to use the word women as it was seen as possibly being offensive to some of us, but I always felt that "females" made me feel like I was a patient in a veterinary clinic.*

I don't like it being referred to as a "male" either, it makes me sound like something from a David Attenborough documentary. I remember a woman I worked with about 10 years ago where I was one of just two men in the office referring to me as "the other male" and I thought then about how it made me sounds like a wild animal

I also often notice how many clothes stores and websites now refer to "women's clothing" rather than "ladies'", as men's clothing is nearly always referred to as just "mens'".

I do often still see many women's hairdressers calling themselves "ladies hairdressers" on their signs and I haven't seen many that say "women's". My local barber used to have "gents cut" on his price list, but when he changed the prices last year, he changed it to simply "men's cut".

I also remember quite a few years ago I went into a hairdressers that said "Ladies and Gents" on the window, but I happened to see that the price list said "Men" and "Ladies" and I found this irritating with male customers not being referred to as politely on the list.

Gentlewoman is a thing in the former colonies. The term is used in the US Congress, whilst in local government they have councilmen and councilwomen not councillors which sound too much like consellors.

MN uses simple markup (paired hyphens for strikethrough, caret for italics, asterisk for bold) - which is easy enough when you get used to it but sometimes mangles a post which uses a dashes as punctuation or features high A level grades.

Or has carriage returns - you need a new pair of splats ( * ) for bolding each paragraph. And make sure there isn't a space between the splat and the first letter of the quoted text

This is really interesting. My son is learning to speak and shouts “Man!” whenever he sees a man or, embarrassingly, a woman with short hair, in the street. I’ve been surprised to find myself hesitating when I correct him with the word “woman”. Often I say “lady” instead - even though I find the word “lady” patronising - just because it seems more polite. I’m now trying to make a conscious effort to say “woman”.

When I was younger I used to really hate being called a lady and would much rather woman was used. I still prefer to be referred to as a woman but I can't be bothered to get upset by it anymore - I'm me and anyone else's 'norms' are no concern of mine.

The reason I think I hated it so much was having had parents, school and my (now ex) husband, telling me certain aspects of my behaviour were 'unladylike' and therefore 'unacceptable'. I particularly hated it from the 'ex' as he used it for such things as changing an electrical plug or drinking a pint (I could have 2 halves but not a pint). I really had no desire to be a lady.

Haven't had time to RTFT yet, but yes.
A male colleague at my primary school keeps referring to female pupils as "young lady" and male pupils as "young man". I cringe whenever he does it, and am waiting for a moment to have a quiet word.

Haven't had time to RTFT yet, but yes.
A male colleague at my primary school keeps referring to female pupils as "young lady" and male pupils as "young man". I cringe whenever he does it, and am waiting for a moment to have a quiet word.

I can remember this kind of thing when I was at secondary school, and I can clearly remember the male deputy head (who was generally very condescending, I'm going back 25 years) referring to a girl as "this young lady". As a child, I always though "lady" and "gentleman" were a pair, and I questioned this to myself at school, thinking the boys were never referred to as "young gentleman". I think referring to pupils as "boys" or "girls" or referring to them by their names would be so much better.

I like being called a lady now I'm grown up. I feel I've earned it. And I like looking over my specs and saying "young man"

Besides. Anyone can be a mere woman now but not everyone can be a lady.

Another female in a male dominated profession here. I can't think of a time that I've been referred to as "woman" rather than "lady", but thinking about it, I think I hear "gentleman" at work (rather than "man") more than in any other out-of-work context. But equally you'd be far more likely to hear "guy", "chap" or "bloke" than "man." I do get "lass" sometimes, but predominantly "lady."

I think I would find "woman" a bit jarring. Possibly because in a lot of circumstances, it's being used in a rush to cover the oversight that the team is not all male. Maybe the politeness of "lady" is an kind of subliminal apology? Thinking about it some more, you rarely hear "lady" in a negative sense, whereas I can't read "woman" without hearing it in my head as in an exasperated / condescending / angry voice.

I say gentleman more than I used to. I think it's helpful in that scenario where you're saying eg to your child "let the gentleman pass" and it does put a useful expectation on the man's behaviour.

Just adding to the terms heard, you used to get things like "young fellow-me-lad", young lad, young sir, young fella.

Dare I ask what people make of "wifie" then?

Dare I ask what people make of "wifie" then?

I don't think people say that here? Do you use it for your wide, or just women more generally?

Oh, that is not meant to be a question, the first part, I know no one says it where I live.