Transgirl/non-binary student at school

[WokeyCokey]

I'm a longstanding MNer and user of FWR but have name changed for this as it discusses my DD and her classmates. Apologies for the length of this post.

My DD, 14, is at an independent co-ed school. She has Asperger's.

Last year ''Colin" joined her school. He'd been out of school for a about a year due to MH reasons, and so when he joined DD's he went back a year to repeat Yr 10. This means he's going to be 16 shortly.

Colin has still been suffering with MH issues, having a fair bit off school, suffering from anxiety and depression. He hasn't fully settled at DD's school and regularly says he doesn't have any friends and no one likes him. This isn't objectively true, as DD and her friends are friendly with him and he hangs out with them. He's funny, intelligent and reasonably good looking. However he wanted to be in with the cool kids and they would apparently laugh at his desperation behind his back.

About a month ago, DD told me that Colin came to school in a skirt because he wanted to. DD said he he said he wasn't trans, he wore it simply because he wanted to, and she told him she was proud of him. I said good for him, that shows guts. Colin is a tall, broad, masculine boy, he doesn't look in any way feminine. I thought it was great that he wore a skirt simply because he wanted to be gender non-conforming and not because he was trans.. Privately, I was a little sceptical, but I decided to take it as face value as just being about clothing freedom.

Recently Colin began wearing a skirt to school a lot more. They said that on the days they're wearing a skirt, they're Chloe and they wants everyone to call them Chloe on those days and call them she/her. On the days when they are in trousers, they want to be called Colin and he/him.

Yesterday Colin 'came out' properly as trans and also non-binary. They have pronounced their pronouns as being she/her and he/him.

They said they are going to take hormones. Their parents were immediately on board when they announced this and have made an appointment to take them to a clinic. Colin/Chloe surgery and will have it when they're legally allowed at 18.

Colin/Chloe said when they start taking hormones and transitioning and ostensibly becoming more Chloe, there will be still be days that they are Colin. DD asked"but if you're presenting as female, how will people know that on those days you're Colin?". Chloe/Colin said they'd tell people they were Colin that day and to address them as he/him.

DD is confused as to how someone can be both trans and non-binary. She views the former as being where your 'true' gender is opposite to the one you were born with and is fixed; and the latter as where your gender is not defined or fixed and is perhaps fluid.DD said to me: "I think it's all gone too far now". I impressed myself with great restraint by simply saying "hmm".

But then the subject of toilets and changing rooms came up.

DD said Colin's been allowed to change in the staff toilets. Fine. But then she added, "well actually, Colin/Chloe told eight of us today (all girls) that they would like to start changing in the girls' changing rooms and asked if we'd mind."

One of the girls said she wouldn't mind. DD said she'd have to think about it. A few of the girls remained quiet. A few others said they'd be uncomfortable with it. To which Colin/Chloe said "but I'd be on hormones." They said their level of comfort depended on whether he was still attracted to girls. Colin/Chloe said, "but you have bisexual girls in the changing room". One of the girls said "that's completely different" and Colin/Chloe said it wasn't.

Which brings me on to something else that came up. DD and Colin/Chloe were joking around about liking each other. DD, who thinks she may be a lesbian, said "ah but I only like girls". And Colin/Chloe said "but I am a girl." DD said that she thought "but you're not". She didn't want to hurt Colin/Chloe's feelings so she said she had a crush on another girl (true). DD told me though that the thing is, Colin/Chloe is "quite masculine looking" and she currently has no interest in being with someone who has a penis. I really felt for her at this point. Bless her little woke heart, she's conflicted because she's been and sees herself as a trans ally but now it's all got a bit real and is impacting her.

I hate that my ASD daughter is prioritising a boy's feelings over biological fact. I hate that a nearly 16-year-old-boy wants to change in the girls' changing room with them and has put them in the position of asking if they'd mind. As Colin/Chloe's parents are on board, I worry about them asking the school if Colin/Chloe can be allowed to do this.

I think on balance the school won't let Chloe change with the girls, but I'm worried they will. I'm speaking to them about it next week as a pre-emptive measure. I don't want a penis in the girls' changing room.

Even though I have no worries about Colin/Chloe being a physical threat, this is someone who is very newly trans, who has a male body and who went out with one of the girls last year and asked two others out (they both turned him down). It's possible he may find seeing one or more of the girls partially undressed arousing despite his best intentions. He tries desperately to be 'in' with people so who knows, in order to gain a bit of popularity with the boys, he talks to them about what he sees in the girls' changing rooms, or worse yet, covertly takes a photo on his phone.

This is a kid with serious mental health issues we're talking about. A neurodiverse kid who hasn't fitted in. I can totally understand how they think that becoming Chloe and changing their bodies will mean they suddenly don't feel different anymore and will 'belong'. I think the poor kid has a shock coming. And I personally don't feel that a teen with long-standing MH issues can make such a decision; I suspect they may change their mind in due course. In the meantime, they may have been allowed access to girls' private spaces.

I'm not sure why I'm posting this other than I find this depressing and know I can find people here who sympathise. I know that under the Equality Act singe sex spaces are allowed so I will be telling the school this, but I'm also worried about how other schools have been ignoring this and how mis-gendering is becoming a hate crime.

I have a child with HFA and I'm rather sick at how he, who has a disability, might be fucked about or labelled a bigot or even possibly prosecuted as a fucking criminal because he can't make sense of all this non-binary or I changed sex stuff because he has a fucking disability that impairs the executive function part of his brain.

I would NOT be happy about this situation and would bring it up to the head at the school, tbh.

I think on balance the school won't let Chloe change with the girls, but I'm worried they will. I'm speaking to them about it next week as a pre-emptive measure.

I think this is a very good idea. I know it's unlikely they won’t have already given the situation some thought, but an awareness that some parents feel it would definitely not be appropriate would be a better starting position for any discussions.

I've no advice to offer but I wish I'd had a mother like you

@PatellarTendonitis you don't need HFA not to make sense of it!

I can't understand why people don't just take a 'that's nice dear' approach to all this before someone hits at least 20. Why facilitate hormones etc

I would be very clear with dd even though she is woke, my lovely lesbian dd is too and ties herself in knots trying to include boys everyone in everything. No, Colin is a boy and should not be changing in the girls changing rooms regardless of clothing choices, medication taken or his inner feelings. Girls boundaries are important and they are needed, however they are no longer fashionable. This is where we all have to pull together and do some serious mumming. We need to make sure safeguarding is taken seriously even if no one else does. I would start with an email seeking reassurance that single sex changing rooms will remain in place.

It comes across that a trans identity has given Colin power to make demands that other pupils don't get to: I want to change somewhere else, I will dictate how I'm referred to and will change that as I please, I will define myself into your sexual identity if I want to.For Colin, one can easily see that would be such a power trip and relief for someone struggling with rejection. I suspect that there's more social capital in being the trsnsgirl hanging out with girls than a boy that's a bit desperate for friends and had to go with the second tier social group of girls or be alone. Now he can wield power (male entitlement?) over that group rather than having to be a bit grateful to them. (I use second tier to mean they're not the popular group and in an entirely positive way, your DD's group come across as very strong minded and she sounds great).

Your concerns and your course of action sound sensible. I have been opposing something else in an entirely different field and I've learnt that decision makers can rely on objections to let them enforce a compromise when challenged. Colin changing with the girls is unacceptable. Colin changing in the staff room is a compromise that supports everyone.

I agree that both you and your dd sound great.

You are doing a cracking job so far and going in to the school is a good plan. At least your dd is old enough and aware enough to keep you in the loop as to what's happening. I'm always worried that a school will accept that a child has changed from a bit to girl and not tell the parents he is using the girls facilities as he is a girl, so why would parents need to know. There is no way my dd would tell me if this was happening at her school as she thinks I'm a terrible bigot who doesn't understand trans issues. 🙄

Colin sounds quite similar to a boy at my DD's school. He has HFA and was really bad at fitting in and making friends. The other kids mostly thought he was an annoying know it all. He was very black and white in his thinking and quite rude at times. DD had an interesting relationship with him though as she did seem to tolerate him better than most.

Then out the blue he started wearing skirts then proclaimed he was a girl. He took a new name (even though his original name was actually androgenous and would have been fine as a girl) And people have to refer to him as a girl now. It's very odd and I can't help feeling that he doesn't fit in with the boys, but is not going to find it any easier to fit in with the girls. He was never a girly boy, and his poor social skills aren't getting any better by presenting as a girl. Maybe he's just looking for an excuse not to have to fit in?

Oh the progression girls are females and BoysWhoFeelABitSad.

It's like our sex is a holiday resort now.

He hasn't fully settled at DD's school and regularly says he doesn't have any friends and no one likes him. This isn't objectively true, as DD and her friends are friendly with him and he hangs out with them. He's funny, intelligent and reasonably goodlooking.

FWIW this sounds just like my DD.
While the reality is exactly as you describe, her perception is completely different.
We’ve come a long way in the last three years thanks to therapy but it is still a struggle some days.
Colin seems to think changing gender may be the solution. My DD decided starving herself and self-harming was the answer.
I say “was” because this stopped 16 months ago and we are in a better place. She is also going to school full-time again this year after having been moved up a year. This means she has to work harder and pay attention.
When I read stories like Colin’s, I realise that we successfully dodged a bullet. As parents, the despair you feel means you leave no stone unturned. Imagine it’s very similar for their parents. As friends of ours famously said when their DD spiralled out of control: “alive till twenty-five”.

A suggestion.

Talk entirely about your daughters disability.

Ask them how they will ensure that the issues, literal thinking, binary thinking, social communication disorder will be taken into account with the application of any policies which she will due entirely to her disability find challenging. Ask how her legal protections of disability will be upheld to ensure she is not punished, treated in a lesser manner under any policies which would be impossible for her to understand and comply with.

And then if necessary mention that let’s say sex. Autism = sex is a constant.

Ever changing pronouns - not feasible to get right due to social communication disorder.

Ask if they are actually expecting a disabled child to use social nuance to treat someone as the opposite sex.

Basically avoid avoid avoid mentioning a specific other child situation and keep on topic of your child only.

This is a kid with serious mental health issues we're talking about

This is what jumps out at me and is often the case when a teenager decides to transition. Often the serious mental health concerns are treated as secondary to the desire to affirm affirm affirm.

When I was a teenager struggling with mental health issues and bullying, I looked to religion. I was an atheist and read loads of books on Judaism and decided that I wanted to convert. Aged 15 I wrote to the rabbi at our local synagogue. I still have his reply. He thanked me for my letter and said that whilst he sympathised with my wish to convert to Judaism, it was a very big decision and that I should come and talk to him when I was at least 18 years of age, if I still felt the same way.
Of course, I got to 18 and was still the same old atheist that I ever was, but if he'd allowed me to convert, I would have done. And it wouldn't have necessitated any radical changes to my hormones or body to do it.

I am aghast at the first thing that jumped out at me from your post - that Colin's parents are supposedly "on board" and have immediately booked him an appointment to start blockers. Is this even true, I wonder? Or something made up to seem "cool"? Surely parents of a child with known mental illness wouldn't behave so irresponsibly? It seems like they are exposing him to even further difficulties in school if so. But equally, I wonder if he is exaggerating wildly.

Your daughter seems like a sensible, thoughtful young woman, and you have a lovely supportive relationship with her.

Is her Asberger's a known quantity at school? If so, I like what @CatalogueUniverse says above - ask how the school is going to work around HER rather than making it about Colin.

Ask how her legal protections of disability will be upheld to ensure she is not punished, treated in a lesser manner under any policies which would be impossible for her to understand and comply with.

If Colin DOES come up, tell the school what your daughter said - that the girls are NOT comfortable with Colin changing with the girls, but are afraid of seeming less woke by expressing their discomfort around having a straight male watching them undress several times a week, and how is the school planning to handle teaching girls about reinforcing their boundaries, confidence and standing up for themselves?

This student is seeing getting undressed in a room with female students undressing around them as another freedom or option they would like as part of their identity exploration.

There is no consideration here of the girls; they're just props to enable this. The asking of the girls 'if they mind' totally abandons any understanding of single sex spaces or the girls having equal status and rights. The girls require a single sex space for their privacy, their dignity, their comfort and safety. That has not changed because it would make a male student happy to be allowed to get undressed amongst them.

The male student's choices are being recognised by providing them with a personal space of their own to change. They absolutely should not be entitled to use the girls as props in their personal explorations of self, and it's alarming that the girls interests matter so little that they've been asked the very weighted question 'do you mind'. It's appalling they were even asked this.

When I was a teenager struggling with mental health issues and bullying, I looked to religion.

I PASSIONATELY wanted to be a nun! I thought this would solve everything. In the end I just became a goth and it was fine - it's much easier to be bullied/jeered at when you are in control of the reasons. Thank goodness none of this existed back then.

I posted this in another thread. The graphics in this thread are interesting - pretty much calling upon girls like your DD to suppress their fears about their own concerns/perceptions of safety and come out of the boundaries that keep them safe in order to be an ally to others.

twitter.com/unwitod/status/1225153425454837760

The graphics are the output of a workshop: Big Bang - Big Picture Learning's International Conference on Student-Centered Learning. It took place in Atlanta Jul 23, 2018

Oh your poor Dd.

And the other girls. Hes really played it well hasnt he. Got them all in a position where they cant say no.

Goes to show how its just never enough is it. They always want more.

I hope school will take the sensible approach and make him keep changing in the staff loo.

Also worth asking staff: are they happy for this student on the days he identifies as Colin to strip amongst girls (and expect girls to strip in front of him)? Or just on the days when the student is identifying as Chloe?

What is the difference in the girls' experience? Is there going to be some kind of magic that makes it not humiliating for them if this student says they are Chloe today?

What do staff feel changes in this student's mind when they move between identities that now makes it appropriate to be with undressing girls when presumably they don't think it's appropriate for the other boys to do so?

What about when Robert, in the same year group, says he wants to change in the girls' room too? And Colin gets to, even though they identify as Colin a lot of the time, so this is unfair discrimination against other boys who would really like the experience of teenaged girls getting undressed in front of them?

For clarity
Treated in a discriminatory manner would include having to change in a separate area from the girls changing room because your daughters disability means she cannot see someone else’s gender identity as equalling female sex.

And if staff are absolutely uninterested in the wellbeing and rights of female students, point out that Colin/Chloe requires safeguarding.

You have a vulnerable student with MH issues desperate to be liked and popular, these tend not to be students who make good decisions and keep boundaries well. If they're not interested in protecting the female students, what measures will they take to ensure they've properly protected Colin/Chloe from filming/photographing the girls or sharing private information from observing the girls undressed or otherwise taking advantage from access to exploit the female students, and getting themselves into potentially trouble for sexual harassment or worse?

it's alarming that the girls interests matter so little that they've been asked the very weighted question 'do you mind'. It's appalling they were even asked this.

They were asked this by Colin. Colin's trying to work out how far he can push this.

I’ve given this a lot of thought as my circumstances are similar. I think the only way to approach it without being shut down as transphobic is to make it entirely about your daughters protections under disability discrimination.

And if staff are absolutely uninterested in the wellbeing and rights of female students, point out that Colin/Chloe requires safeguarding.

A very good point - he is massively vulnerable here.

If one of the cool boys decided to troll him and said "Hey Colin - Chad is having a party on at the weekend and says you're totally invited if you can send us some hot pics of the girls changing today. Is that cool? He'll get you some vodka if you get a boob shot."

What do you think will be whirling through Colin's head while the boys crack up laughing at him again?

I think the only way to approach it without being shut down as transphobic is to make it entirely about your daughters protections under disability discrimination

Unfortunately even the cps "guidence" places lgbt as the top protected characteristic. Nothing else gets consideration.Rejecting colin is a hate crime