Transgirl/non-binary student at school

[WokeyCokey]

I'm a longstanding MNer and user of FWR but have name changed for this as it discusses my DD and her classmates. Apologies for the length of this post.

My DD, 14, is at an independent co-ed school. She has Asperger's.

Last year ''Colin" joined her school. He'd been out of school for a about a year due to MH reasons, and so when he joined DD's he went back a year to repeat Yr 10. This means he's going to be 16 shortly.

Colin has still been suffering with MH issues, having a fair bit off school, suffering from anxiety and depression. He hasn't fully settled at DD's school and regularly says he doesn't have any friends and no one likes him. This isn't objectively true, as DD and her friends are friendly with him and he hangs out with them. He's funny, intelligent and reasonably good looking. However he wanted to be in with the cool kids and they would apparently laugh at his desperation behind his back.

About a month ago, DD told me that Colin came to school in a skirt because he wanted to. DD said he he said he wasn't trans, he wore it simply because he wanted to, and she told him she was proud of him. I said good for him, that shows guts. Colin is a tall, broad, masculine boy, he doesn't look in any way feminine. I thought it was great that he wore a skirt simply because he wanted to be gender non-conforming and not because he was trans.. Privately, I was a little sceptical, but I decided to take it as face value as just being about clothing freedom.

Recently Colin began wearing a skirt to school a lot more. They said that on the days they're wearing a skirt, they're Chloe and they wants everyone to call them Chloe on those days and call them she/her. On the days when they are in trousers, they want to be called Colin and he/him.

Yesterday Colin 'came out' properly as trans and also non-binary. They have pronounced their pronouns as being she/her and he/him.

They said they are going to take hormones. Their parents were immediately on board when they announced this and have made an appointment to take them to a clinic. Colin/Chloe surgery and will have it when they're legally allowed at 18.

Colin/Chloe said when they start taking hormones and transitioning and ostensibly becoming more Chloe, there will be still be days that they are Colin. DD asked"but if you're presenting as female, how will people know that on those days you're Colin?". Chloe/Colin said they'd tell people they were Colin that day and to address them as he/him.

DD is confused as to how someone can be both trans and non-binary. She views the former as being where your 'true' gender is opposite to the one you were born with and is fixed; and the latter as where your gender is not defined or fixed and is perhaps fluid.DD said to me: "I think it's all gone too far now". I impressed myself with great restraint by simply saying "hmm".

But then the subject of toilets and changing rooms came up.

DD said Colin's been allowed to change in the staff toilets. Fine. But then she added, "well actually, Colin/Chloe told eight of us today (all girls) that they would like to start changing in the girls' changing rooms and asked if we'd mind."

One of the girls said she wouldn't mind. DD said she'd have to think about it. A few of the girls remained quiet. A few others said they'd be uncomfortable with it. To which Colin/Chloe said "but I'd be on hormones." They said their level of comfort depended on whether he was still attracted to girls. Colin/Chloe said, "but you have bisexual girls in the changing room". One of the girls said "that's completely different" and Colin/Chloe said it wasn't.

Which brings me on to something else that came up. DD and Colin/Chloe were joking around about liking each other. DD, who thinks she may be a lesbian, said "ah but I only like girls". And Colin/Chloe said "but I am a girl." DD said that she thought "but you're not". She didn't want to hurt Colin/Chloe's feelings so she said she had a crush on another girl (true). DD told me though that the thing is, Colin/Chloe is "quite masculine looking" and she currently has no interest in being with someone who has a penis. I really felt for her at this point. Bless her little woke heart, she's conflicted because she's been and sees herself as a trans ally but now it's all got a bit real and is impacting her.

I hate that my ASD daughter is prioritising a boy's feelings over biological fact. I hate that a nearly 16-year-old-boy wants to change in the girls' changing room with them and has put them in the position of asking if they'd mind. As Colin/Chloe's parents are on board, I worry about them asking the school if Colin/Chloe can be allowed to do this.

I think on balance the school won't let Chloe change with the girls, but I'm worried they will. I'm speaking to them about it next week as a pre-emptive measure. I don't want a penis in the girls' changing room.

Even though I have no worries about Colin/Chloe being a physical threat, this is someone who is very newly trans, who has a male body and who went out with one of the girls last year and asked two others out (they both turned him down). It's possible he may find seeing one or more of the girls partially undressed arousing despite his best intentions. He tries desperately to be 'in' with people so who knows, in order to gain a bit of popularity with the boys, he talks to them about what he sees in the girls' changing rooms, or worse yet, covertly takes a photo on his phone.

This is a kid with serious mental health issues we're talking about. A neurodiverse kid who hasn't fitted in. I can totally understand how they think that becoming Chloe and changing their bodies will mean they suddenly don't feel different anymore and will 'belong'. I think the poor kid has a shock coming. And I personally don't feel that a teen with long-standing MH issues can make such a decision; I suspect they may change their mind in due course. In the meantime, they may have been allowed access to girls' private spaces.

I'm not sure why I'm posting this other than I find this depressing and know I can find people here who sympathise. I know that under the Equality Act singe sex spaces are allowed so I will be telling the school this, but I'm also worried about how other schools have been ignoring this and how mis-gendering is becoming a hate crime.

The guidance does state that about LGBT. It doesn’t state that it legally supersedes all other legislation. So it will be interesting to see what a school actually does when a parent demonstrates understanding of law in regard to their child and asks for clarity on how their child’s legal protections will be upheld.

Female students having the right to privacy, dignity, freedom from embarrassment and the right to separate from male students when in a state of undress is not transphobic

Females not prioritising giving recognition and 'acceptance' of a male student's personal sense of self over their own needs above is not transphobic . It's flat out misogyny. It's seeing people with female biology as care givers and punishing those who don't put males first. I'm never teaching a teenaged girl that.

The word 'transphobic' quite simply equals lazy thinking and refusing to properly consider the issues at hand. Or face up to the conflicts involved.

Re disability discrimination: 'trans' is being pushed as so politically powerful that it trumps other characteristics. This will have to be tested in court. Should the wish of a male for validation in their chosen sense of self by using female spaces be prioritised, even when this means that male by their presence has excluded female students from the female facilities due to disability, faith, culture, trauma etc etc? Essentially, is a male always more important than any female present?

That's where the impact assessments are meant to come in. I would suggest maning a foi request however all requests regarding equality impact assessments are unfulfilled because conveniently they have been lost/misplaced/deleted/eaten by the dog etc

An awful lot also seem to suddenly claim to have other protected characteristics too

“Do you mind?” is such a manipulative question. These girls will be desperate to appear kind and woke and a good ally. We all know kids prize that over almost everything else right now.

He has asked them a question they can’t say no to without massive social repercussions.

This is a kid with serious mental health issues we're talking about. A neurodiverse kid who hasn't fitted in. I can totally understand how they think that becoming Chloe and changing their bodies will mean they suddenly don't feel different anymore and will 'belong'. I think the poor kid has a shock coming. And I personally don't feel that a teen with long-standing MH issues can make such a decision; I suspect they may change their mind in due course. In the meantime, they may have been allowed access to girls' private spaces.

Nail on head.

I would urge the OP to be really clear in her meeting with the school next week, because the "Lily" Madigan affair showed us that schools cave in pretty quickly to the demands of a "Colin" particularly if they go to a solicitor who specialises in these matters.

www.kentonline.co.uk/maidstone/news/schools-apology-to-transgender-pupil-104081/

Yes to caving schools when confronted with the law.
Which is exactly why the OP should make it clear that her daughter also has the protection of the law.

Daughters well being concerns. The existing over thinking and anxiety about trying to do right thing while being autistic means she can’t get her head around various concepts. The existing anxiety as an autistic lesbian who absolutely does not want to upset someone but struggles with the right way to say I am interested in females only as the literal thinking and speech results in a conflict between polite non confrontational answer (difficult anyway) and a blunt factual response.

OP try to get it straight in your head and written down and stay on topic of your child. If they push for specific examples say you do not wish to name names in this situation as you are not going to out a child when you have no idea whether their circumstances have been disclosed to school/parents.

Your local authority IASS team will know equality law for SEND inside out and will be used to situations where they represent the needs of a disabled student protected under the Code of Practice and the Equality Act. They may be able to attend the meeting with you.

Although it shouldn't be that girls' access to their normal, every day single sex spaces, privacy, dignity, freedom from a hostile or embarrassing environment depends on their being able to prove disability.

Non disabled girls have the same rights.

Under reasonable adjustments, the requirement to meet a disabled student's need: is it more reasonable that the male student continue to be provided with separate changing facilities from the boys and the female only space remains inclusive for all female students? Or more reasonable that females unable to cope with a male in the female space must be provided with separate changing facilities?

(Which would actually be female students excluded from the female only space due to the presence of a male student.)

Female only changing now inclusive to males but not to all females.

What would be a non-presumptive version of, "Do you mind?"

What would be the better question? One that doesn't pre-suppose compliance and that asking the question is a social courtesy because the expected/default answer is, "No."

School need to be sorting this out not Colin/chloe asking fellow students.
And as part of this you could ask the school to allow female students time and space to think about this and talk it through with parents. It’s not all about C, it’s about a policy and school working out how to meet everyone’s needs taking into account any sen and other issues.

Thank you for all the messages I appreciate the support and advice.

This has all come about very quickly; last month when Colin started wearing a skirt he said he wasn't trans, then last week he said to students he was non-binary and was sometimes Chloe, then on Thursday he told DD and others about his pronouns but apparently said he didn't like or want to use labels. DD says he seems to be going back on what he says a lot because that night he "came out" as trans on social media. And put his pronouns as she/her and he/him.

And so I will use 'he' and Colin from now on in these posts; as Colin doesn't object, it it is not misgendering. In fact, in a class newsletter we got on Friday, Colin was referred to - regarding a good piece of work he'd done - by the Head of Year as Colin and 'he'. So the school, which does allow him to use the staff changing room as he wears a skirt, currently do not appear to be under any instructions to call him 'Chloe' and 'she' although I suspect that will come shortly.

I told DD that I had a meeting with the Headteacher next week and she immediately assumed that it wasn't about this and told me not to mention anything. She said that Colin had brought up him changing in the girls' changing rooms as "an idea" and that it wasn't our business until the school ask. She hopes that if the school does consider allowing him to use the girls', the school will ask the girls' parents first, because as DD says "we are underage so even if we agree to it, it's up to our parents". Wise girl, although not always the attitude she'll take when she thinks she knows better than me And although I'm joking here, I think that's at the nub of it: she and probably the other girls will hope that their parents can protect them from this.

I didn't promise DD I wouldn't bring it up with the Headteacher, I managed to not say anything so I'm not lying as such. But it is the purpose of the meeting. I want to give the Headteacher a "heads up" and arguments they can use to counter it should the proposal come from Colin and his parents.

I think focusing on my DD's social communication disorder/differences is a good idea. She's not the only girl with ASD in the year. And in fact it showed itself when I put to her a PP's point that Colin may have been "exaggerating" when he said his parents' were on board. DD's first reaction was: "but why would he say that if it's not true?"

She then thought about it and said that Colin has said the other day that his father has brought him make up, and has spoken to the school about Colin using the staff changing room, so she does think he's on board. The parents are split up and by the father's own admission to me and other parents in the past, it is still acrimonious. I can imagine that the parents may be leaping on the trans issue being the source of Colin's mental health issues as a way of solving them, and I can understand that albeit don't agree it's the right way forward.

As Colin has in fact been mean to DD in the past in order to try and get in with the cool kids, I have a personal example when talking to the school about my concerns on that front. Should I need to. In that case, it backfired, DD and others gave him what for and then he and DD sorted it out. But he very much is a child who seems to want attention and who chops and changes allegiances. (He is 15 after all.)

I do think that the Headteacher, who has a scientific and traditional background and is not the wokiest, is likely to put the girls' safeguarding first here. They do not currently have any other 'out' trans people at the school. As the school know and have helped with DD's own MH problems in the past, they are well aware of the need to safeguard her and others.

My main concern however is that Colin's father is a hotshot lawyer and I worry that he may pressure the school. I am a lawyer myself so will tell the school what the law in a non-condescending way. This is why I wanted to get in first because this trans juggernaut that Colin is on is gaining momentum every single day.

Also worth asking staff: are they happy for this student on the days he identifies as Colin to strip amongst girls (and expect girls to strip in front of him)? Or just on the days when the student is identifying as Chloe?

What is the difference in the girls' experience? Is there going to be some kind of magic that makes it not humiliating for them if this student says they are Chloe today?

What do staff feel changes in this student's mind when they move between identities that now makes it appropriate to be with undressing girls when presumably they don't think it's appropriate for the other boys to do so?

What about when Robert, in the same year group, says he wants to change in the girls' room too? And Colin gets to, even though they identify as Colin a lot of the time, so this is unfair discrimination against other boys who would really like the experience of teenaged girls getting undressed in front of them?

Yes yes to all of this @Michelleoftheresistance Great points, I will be bringing them. I'm actually thankful to Colin being so mega woke (or confused) that he wants all the pronouns as this gives me a get-out clause. It would surely be ridiculous to all if some days Colin-as-Chloe was allowed to change with the girls, and on other days in the same week he's not as he would 'just' be Colin. However what's the betting that Colin would be Chloe on the two days they have PE per week?

I would also ask their safeguarding lead to consider the worst case scenario, which you would imagine is part of good safeguarding protocol.

I’d argue that for reasonable adjustment in this case that the needs of the ASD child to not be excluded, avoid change of routine, extra anxiety about being different that status quo should be held tbh. Also that the alternative is not a reasonable adjustment as it creates all those issues so is very far from reasonable.

Absolutely all girls deserve dignity and privacy in single sex spaces. As do boys. Whether they will get in the current climate is another matter so if OP has extra arrows in her quiver she should use them.

Colin sounds troubled and manipulative. Would you be able to suggest to your DD that it might be an idea to avoid joking around about liking each other as it sounds like it could get messy and it wouldn’t be fair to either of them to have extra confusion?

we are underage so even if we agree to it, it's up to our parents". Wise girl,

"We are underage so even if we agree to it, it's up to our parents." Wise girl.

And a wise mum 👏🏻 you're right to get ahead of this with the Head I think.

She and probably the other girls will hope their parents protect them from this

Ultimately this is what we need to do each and every time, for our children, boys or girls. I am now deeply suspicious of schools in general (and the police, and the justice system) and I'm glad I've returned to this thread to learn the Head is likely to safeguard the girls in this situation.

It would indeed be interesting to see if it's Chloe who turns up on PE days. Hmmm.

Good luck with the meeting OP. I hope you are able to let us know how it goes.

Re: parents taking Colin to a gender clinic, the only private service that treats under 18s in the UK is Gender GP, who operate via Skype from Spain.

Some great points.

Thank you OhHolyJesus for saying I'm a wise mum. I appreciate that as I'm going to go against DD's wishes by bringing it up with the Headteacher. One thing about DD having ASD is that I do have to think about everything beforehand. And with this I need to proceed carefully as DD is well aware that I'm GC and we've agreed before that we disagree on self-identification.

I would also ask their safeguarding lead to consider the worst case scenario, which you would imagine is part of good safeguarding protocol.

Excellent suggestion, will do. Part of why I want to get ahead of this with the Head is because it's all still technically hypothetical at the moment; it takes some of the heat out of it as it's less personal. Easier to think of a worst case scenario when when it's hypothetical and can be applied to a general precedent, rather than "but what if Colin were to attack a girl". (Which, to be clear, is not something that worries me or DD at all.)

Colin sounds troubled and manipulative. Would you be able to suggest to your DD that it might be an idea to avoid joking around about liking each other as it sounds like it could get messy and it wouldn’t be fair to either of them to have extra confusion?

Catalogue yes I agree, I'll speak to her about this. To DD it was "joking". But I know, and indeed she knows, that she has missed clues from boys who liked her before because she takes things at face value. She doesn't get that a 'joke' may be hiding a truth and she doesn't always get subtext. She needs to be careful with Colin for both her and his sake.

Op you are taking a v sensible approach. You are right to start speaking to school before anything more concrete comes up. It might not have even crossed the head's mind that Colin would ever think about asking to use girls changing rooms.

It depends how the conversation goes & where it takes you, but it might be worth having legal guidence up your sleeve (not literally!) that you can point them to. eg. I read the ehrc discrimination law guidence & it's clear that it's lawful to arrange alternatives for a trans woman in order to keep a space single sex. An example I can remember is work sleeping accommodation. Schools have been advised that they need to allow trans pupils to use facilities of their id gender, and that may be the kind of info the school has been reading. But in fact if they do that they are choosing that instead of a lawful alternative, not just simply following the law, & ought to be able to justify it.

But in general, I agree with people who say focus on your daughters needs.

Keep us posted.

WokeyCokey Im an ASD woman in my 40s and still get social nuance wrong
Pretty good at it from the observer viewpoint though

You are doing a great job, if you keep the lines of communication open things are so much easier with young people.

Echo the poster who advised a meeting with the designated safe guarding lead. And also get a copy of the safeguarding policy/bullying policy and any other policies regarding the management of pupil behaviour around relationships.

Schools are very wise to dealing with trans issues. The school I work in has two sets of exam cards for a pupil that presents both as male and female from one day to the next. I don’t think it will be the first time they have had to think about it.

I’d be astounded if Colin or Chole is allowed to use the female changing room/showers. the school rules alone will state boys are not allowed in girls toilets/showers, and legally Colin/Chloe is male.

I do hope the school protects all the children. Vulnerable as your DD, the other girls and Colin may be, in different ways, they are also each in danger of being held responsible for hurting another, and it is the school's and parents' responsibility to ensure they are not put in that position. They are just too young to have their lives or reputations ruined, or to be held responsible for ruining the life or reputation of someone else (e.g. the obtaining nude photos scenario, mentioned upthread, which could land someone on the sex offenders' register, or perhaps a "rejection" leading to the dreaded label of t*rf or "transphobe").

Heading off trouble before it starts is an excellent idea. We are where we are socially because changes, in dome cases legal changes, have been slipped in without scrutiny and without defence. Forewarned is forearmed , and all that. Good luck!