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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

My complaint to Sussex Police re their handling of protest at WPUK Brighton Meeting

668 replies

WomanBornNotWorn · 03/02/2020 11:01

I was at the WPUK meeting in Brighton in September.

It was targeted by a group of protestors rather bigger than Saturday's London bunch - well, that one was just a little posy ...

They kicked and punched the windows for several hours, while Julie Bindel's video shows police officers staring into space:

www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-7497869/Anger-crowd-transgender-rights-protesters-intimidate-meeting-womens-rights-group.html

I submitted a complaint that the officers allowed it to go on for a long time (watch the WPUK videos on You Tube and you'll hear it).

I've now received the detailed response from the police:

"Following your complaint, made regarding the actions of Sussex Police in dealing with a protest at a Woman’s Place UK meeting in Brighton on 23 September 2019, I have now completed my enquiries.

In your complaint you explained that you were unhappy that the officers who attended the incident at the Woman’s Place meeting took no action to prevent the disruption from protesters and stood by while protesters were shouting and banging on the windows of where the meeting was taking place.

Chief Inspector Sproston was the Public Order Silver Commander during the event, he held full responsibility for the actions of the staff who reported to him and he provided a report following the event.

The Bronze Commander was Inspector Lovell who was on the ground with the Public Order teams, he provided me with an account of the event.

Chief Inspector Sproston was fully aware of the problem caused by protestors at a previous WPUK meeting in the city and the requirements for public order policing. He and Inspector Lovell held a briefing prior to the event and formulated a plan to manage the protest against WPUK using the Protest Liaison Team (PLT).

The agreed venue, which WPUK had arranged for the meeting, was at the Odeon cinema. This afforded complete security with no access to the protestors once inside the venue. However on the evening of the event, the Odeon management declined to allow WPUK to hold their meeting there and the venue was changed. WPUK organisers had already identified a secondary location which Sussex Police were unaware of until they were informed of the venue changed half an hour before the meeting was due to start.

Inspector Lovell deployed his staff to the new venue at the BMECP Centre in Fleet Street using the same plan as was intended at the Odeon. Protestors were already at the venue and a public order team were sent to the front of the building. There were also four security staff employed by WPUK at the front, controlling entry to the building. The initial approach had been to use the PLT to try and engage with the protestors and they deployed as soon as they arrived at the new venue.

As the meeting progressed, part of the protest group went to the rear of the premises where the windows to the meeting room were at ground level. The protestors began banging on the windows and the PLT asked them to stop. When the banging escalated Inspector Lovell sent two Public Order Teams to form a cordon in front of the windows.

The protestors continued shouting and chanting at the front and the rear of the premises. Residents from the flats above threw water down onto the protestors, which also covered some of the Police Officers, but it could not be ascertained exactly which flat it had come from.

Chief Inspector Sproston had considered a number of things when making his assessment. The venue had been moved, with no notice, to a location that police had not been able to carry out a reconnaissance at. Their public order assessment had been for the Odeon cinema which had one manageable entrance and resources available to deal with that. Chief Inspector Sproston is confident that had there been a consultation on the new site, it would not have been recommended by police.

WPUK have the right to hold a meeting and not be subject to serious disorder, damage or disruption to the community. The protestors have the right to protest under articles 9, 10 and 11 of the Human Rights Act. Freedom of Expression under article 10 is applicable to the expression of views that may shock, disturb or offend the deeply held beliefs of others. This does however, have to be balanced against the rights of WPUK.

Chief Inspector Sproston considered imposing section 14 of the Public Order Act 1986 as the banging on the windows could have been interpreted as being intended to intimidate WPUK members with a view to compelling them not to hold their meeting, which they had a right to do.

Section 14 would have allowed the senior officer present to stipulate the location, duration and numbers of people allowed to protest. There was no suitable place to direct the protestors to as any place which would not have affected the venue of the meeting, would have meant the protestors would have been completely out of sight of the venue. This would have effectively stopped the protest and not just restricted its effect which is not in the spirit of articles 9, 10 and 11 of the Humans Rights Act. In turn this would have not stood up to scrutiny or challenge.

Although the protestors were loud, the meeting did go ahead and there were no reports of serious disorder, serious damage to property or disruption to the life of the community.

Public nuisance under common law was also considered. However this offence constitutes injury, loss or damage to the public in general. Undoubtedly the protestors were a nuisance by their presence but they did not commit this offence.

Inspector Lovell reported that there was no effort on behalf of the protestors to damage or enter the building. No one was prevented from entering or exiting the building and the meeting was able to go ahead.
There were 6 phone calls to police between 18:30 and 21:00, four from people inside the venue and two from third parties who were not in attendance.

The first caller was at 18:37 expressing concerns over people outside shouting. During the call they told the call taker that police were arriving on scene.

The second caller was at 19:15 concerned about the banging on windows. During the call they advised the call taker that police were now inside the building and helping.

The next two callers were also from inside the venue who expressed concerns about the banging on windows. One was at 19:24 and another at 19:27 who said that she was scared to leave the venue due to protestors smashing on the glass.

The last two callers were from third parties who had been in contact with people inside the venue. They were alerting the police to the banging on windows. One call was at 20:32 and the other at 20:54

There was only one call from a local resident at 21:20 complaining about the noise from the protestors. However Sussex Police were aware and monitoring the social media posts.

I have viewed Body Worn Video footage from several officers at the event. I have also viewed the video footage obtained by the Public Order Evidence Gathering Team (EGT).

At 19:09 the EGT footage showed a small group at the rear of the building with a few of the protestors banging on windows with their hands. The PLT were speaking with the protestors.

At 19:27 the EGT footage showed a larger group gathering at the rear and many of them were banging on the windows with their hands. The public order teams formed a cordon in front of the windows and the officers were physically pushing the protestors away from the building in order to prevent a Breach of the Peace.

At 19:30 BWV footage showed the officers getting between the protestors and the building to form the cordon, preventing the protestors from banging on the windows. Although some banging could be heard in the background, it was unclear where this was coming from. The footage continued until 20:20 and showed the officers with their backs against the building. The protestors formed a line in front of the police, with their backs to them whilst they continued to shout and chant.

At 21:09 BWV footage showed a protestor telling the group to go to the front of the building as the meeting was coming to an end. She told the protestors make sure they filmed the police and got their ID numbers.

At 21:11 BWV footage showed the police cordon between the protestors and the building, leaving a clear walkway for the attendees to leave the meeting. The protestors continued shouting until everyone had left the building.

The protestors were creating a lot of noise and their chants were not only against WPUK, they included obscenities aimed at the police. The footage supports the reports made by Chief Inspector Sproston and Inspector Lovell. There was no violence and no serious disorder.

Using the core principles, and legal framework set out by the College of Policing in their Authorised Professional Practice, I am satisfied that the event was policed lawfully, proportionately and appropriately.

The Professional Standards Department will retain a copy of your complaint and the local resolution outcome."

OP posts:
Poota · 05/02/2020 08:46

Humpty, I think it's implied in the 'appeal to compassion' that, according to the list of woman things ie compassion, we must all be women.

CallofDoodee · 05/02/2020 08:47

Hours later and not one of you have come up with a reason for this irrational fear of transwomen.

98% of sexual crime is carried out by men. That's largely the reason that we have certain sex segregated spaces (toilets, changing rooms, refuges, prisons etc). Men are high risk as a class, women are low risk as a class.

Can you tell me at what point does a man, who 'identifies' as a woman, comes out of the high risk class of male and into the low risk class of female?

Surgery? Hormones? Long hair? Makeup? A dress? Just a declaration that they are a woman?

What is a transwoman and what is a woman? What is the difference between a transwoman and a woman?

Lots of questions for you there that I look forward to getting an answer to Smile

ItsLateHumpty · 05/02/2020 08:48

If there's not to be a dance off, can I at least get a shout out for most uses of the word cunt, on a thread ever?

It's been very odd, as there's not much call to use this an an anatomically female word outside this thread irl.

Poota · 05/02/2020 08:48

Sealioning! Pretending that a devastating question has gone unanswered so it need to be asked repeatedly even when it's been addressed for hundreds of posts. There's always a sneaky square in the corner I miss.

ItsLateHumpty · 05/02/2020 08:51

Poota if you have bingo, congratulations!

You might want to add 'song lyrics as an argument' square on the next card, just to make it a slightly harder game?

Poota · 05/02/2020 08:57

I think that is quite novel, isn't it Humpty? A surrealist interlude I quite enjoyed. I bit undercut by posting the whole song and then putting the supposedly astounding five lines that Deez thought were relevant in a separate post, but points for lateral thinking, at least.

littlbrowndog · 05/02/2020 09:00

Well woke up to this.

RufustheLanglovingreindeer · 05/02/2020 09:01

Who said women can’t multitask

Im drying my hair while reading this thread...its really short hair mind so not that difficult

Poota · 05/02/2020 09:03

Snap Rufus!😂🤣😂

RufustheLanglovingreindeer · 05/02/2020 09:08

😀

MsMcWibble · 05/02/2020 09:08

Utterly failing here. Where is my jumper?

Cascade220 · 05/02/2020 09:14

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

RufustheLanglovingreindeer · 05/02/2020 09:17

Where is my jumper

With the other half of the incoherent arguement?

RufustheLanglovingreindeer · 05/02/2020 09:18

Just a smidge spartacus

MsMcWibble · 05/02/2020 09:24

Rufus You are more right than you know. I really must do my womanly tidying better.

ScrimshawTheSecond · 05/02/2020 09:27

Er, good morning, everyone? What on earth happened here?

BovaryX · 05/02/2020 09:28

The definition I use of xxxx is an odious human being

Why doesn't this surprise me in the slightest? Radioactive misogyny with a side order of aggrieved victim.....

BovaryX · 05/02/2020 09:30

Scrimshaw
A sudden outburst of misogyny followed by some random Bob Dylan lyrics. Tres bizarre...

ScrimshawTheSecond · 05/02/2020 09:33

Bob Dylan? Crikey.

littlbrowndog · 05/02/2020 09:34

Bigoted cunts we are

And the threat to mumsnet.

Then song lyrics.

Then have you ever had sex question

TheProdigalKittensReturn · 05/02/2020 09:36

Is the next question going to be if we've ever has sex with Bob Dylan?

Poota · 05/02/2020 09:38

The answer, my friends, is blowing out of someone's arse...

ScrimshawTheSecond · 05/02/2020 09:39

Is the answer Blowing in the Wind?

Sorry.

OldCrone · 05/02/2020 09:53

I am compassionate, I feel emotions a lot, I cry more than men, I like chick flicks, I have a maternal instinct, basically I'm more intuitive emotionally than men.

Men couldn't give a shit, are generally competitive at the expense of anyone else, they don't feel enough to make them cry, they like war films, war games, they find children a nice endorsement of their manhood but lack the feminine touch and they are like bulls in china shops when it comes to emotions.

Just catching up with this thread, but in one of OhDeez's undeleted posts, this is apparently how we know what our sex is (or is it our gender identity?)

OhDeez is this seriously all you've got? Stereotype after stereotype after stereotype. And you wonder why feminists don't agree with you. You might like to research what feminists generally think about gender stereotypes.

SapphosRock · 05/02/2020 09:56

I think @OhDeez deserves a response to this post:

I have been raped by a stranger (violently)

I am sorry this awful thing happened to you. You say you were helped by a male psychiatrist. Can you understand why women who have had similar experiences may want to be helped by a female psychiatrist?

Can you appreciate that if trans women have identical rights to adult females then they could freely work as female psychiatrists?

Do you realise that many trans women choose not to alter their physical appearance at all and still present as male?

Can you appreciate that a rape victim who wishes to see a female psychiatrist could feel vulnerable and threatened by a male bodied person who identifies as female?

In the above scenario whose rights and feelings are more important? The psychiatrist's right to be validated as a woman or the rape victim's right to see a female psychiatrist.

Think about that for 20 seconds.

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