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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

My complaint to Sussex Police re their handling of protest at WPUK Brighton Meeting

668 replies

WomanBornNotWorn · 03/02/2020 11:01

I was at the WPUK meeting in Brighton in September.

It was targeted by a group of protestors rather bigger than Saturday's London bunch - well, that one was just a little posy ...

They kicked and punched the windows for several hours, while Julie Bindel's video shows police officers staring into space:

www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-7497869/Anger-crowd-transgender-rights-protesters-intimidate-meeting-womens-rights-group.html

I submitted a complaint that the officers allowed it to go on for a long time (watch the WPUK videos on You Tube and you'll hear it).

I've now received the detailed response from the police:

"Following your complaint, made regarding the actions of Sussex Police in dealing with a protest at a Woman’s Place UK meeting in Brighton on 23 September 2019, I have now completed my enquiries.

In your complaint you explained that you were unhappy that the officers who attended the incident at the Woman’s Place meeting took no action to prevent the disruption from protesters and stood by while protesters were shouting and banging on the windows of where the meeting was taking place.

Chief Inspector Sproston was the Public Order Silver Commander during the event, he held full responsibility for the actions of the staff who reported to him and he provided a report following the event.

The Bronze Commander was Inspector Lovell who was on the ground with the Public Order teams, he provided me with an account of the event.

Chief Inspector Sproston was fully aware of the problem caused by protestors at a previous WPUK meeting in the city and the requirements for public order policing. He and Inspector Lovell held a briefing prior to the event and formulated a plan to manage the protest against WPUK using the Protest Liaison Team (PLT).

The agreed venue, which WPUK had arranged for the meeting, was at the Odeon cinema. This afforded complete security with no access to the protestors once inside the venue. However on the evening of the event, the Odeon management declined to allow WPUK to hold their meeting there and the venue was changed. WPUK organisers had already identified a secondary location which Sussex Police were unaware of until they were informed of the venue changed half an hour before the meeting was due to start.

Inspector Lovell deployed his staff to the new venue at the BMECP Centre in Fleet Street using the same plan as was intended at the Odeon. Protestors were already at the venue and a public order team were sent to the front of the building. There were also four security staff employed by WPUK at the front, controlling entry to the building. The initial approach had been to use the PLT to try and engage with the protestors and they deployed as soon as they arrived at the new venue.

As the meeting progressed, part of the protest group went to the rear of the premises where the windows to the meeting room were at ground level. The protestors began banging on the windows and the PLT asked them to stop. When the banging escalated Inspector Lovell sent two Public Order Teams to form a cordon in front of the windows.

The protestors continued shouting and chanting at the front and the rear of the premises. Residents from the flats above threw water down onto the protestors, which also covered some of the Police Officers, but it could not be ascertained exactly which flat it had come from.

Chief Inspector Sproston had considered a number of things when making his assessment. The venue had been moved, with no notice, to a location that police had not been able to carry out a reconnaissance at. Their public order assessment had been for the Odeon cinema which had one manageable entrance and resources available to deal with that. Chief Inspector Sproston is confident that had there been a consultation on the new site, it would not have been recommended by police.

WPUK have the right to hold a meeting and not be subject to serious disorder, damage or disruption to the community. The protestors have the right to protest under articles 9, 10 and 11 of the Human Rights Act. Freedom of Expression under article 10 is applicable to the expression of views that may shock, disturb or offend the deeply held beliefs of others. This does however, have to be balanced against the rights of WPUK.

Chief Inspector Sproston considered imposing section 14 of the Public Order Act 1986 as the banging on the windows could have been interpreted as being intended to intimidate WPUK members with a view to compelling them not to hold their meeting, which they had a right to do.

Section 14 would have allowed the senior officer present to stipulate the location, duration and numbers of people allowed to protest. There was no suitable place to direct the protestors to as any place which would not have affected the venue of the meeting, would have meant the protestors would have been completely out of sight of the venue. This would have effectively stopped the protest and not just restricted its effect which is not in the spirit of articles 9, 10 and 11 of the Humans Rights Act. In turn this would have not stood up to scrutiny or challenge.

Although the protestors were loud, the meeting did go ahead and there were no reports of serious disorder, serious damage to property or disruption to the life of the community.

Public nuisance under common law was also considered. However this offence constitutes injury, loss or damage to the public in general. Undoubtedly the protestors were a nuisance by their presence but they did not commit this offence.

Inspector Lovell reported that there was no effort on behalf of the protestors to damage or enter the building. No one was prevented from entering or exiting the building and the meeting was able to go ahead.
There were 6 phone calls to police between 18:30 and 21:00, four from people inside the venue and two from third parties who were not in attendance.

The first caller was at 18:37 expressing concerns over people outside shouting. During the call they told the call taker that police were arriving on scene.

The second caller was at 19:15 concerned about the banging on windows. During the call they advised the call taker that police were now inside the building and helping.

The next two callers were also from inside the venue who expressed concerns about the banging on windows. One was at 19:24 and another at 19:27 who said that she was scared to leave the venue due to protestors smashing on the glass.

The last two callers were from third parties who had been in contact with people inside the venue. They were alerting the police to the banging on windows. One call was at 20:32 and the other at 20:54

There was only one call from a local resident at 21:20 complaining about the noise from the protestors. However Sussex Police were aware and monitoring the social media posts.

I have viewed Body Worn Video footage from several officers at the event. I have also viewed the video footage obtained by the Public Order Evidence Gathering Team (EGT).

At 19:09 the EGT footage showed a small group at the rear of the building with a few of the protestors banging on windows with their hands. The PLT were speaking with the protestors.

At 19:27 the EGT footage showed a larger group gathering at the rear and many of them were banging on the windows with their hands. The public order teams formed a cordon in front of the windows and the officers were physically pushing the protestors away from the building in order to prevent a Breach of the Peace.

At 19:30 BWV footage showed the officers getting between the protestors and the building to form the cordon, preventing the protestors from banging on the windows. Although some banging could be heard in the background, it was unclear where this was coming from. The footage continued until 20:20 and showed the officers with their backs against the building. The protestors formed a line in front of the police, with their backs to them whilst they continued to shout and chant.

At 21:09 BWV footage showed a protestor telling the group to go to the front of the building as the meeting was coming to an end. She told the protestors make sure they filmed the police and got their ID numbers.

At 21:11 BWV footage showed the police cordon between the protestors and the building, leaving a clear walkway for the attendees to leave the meeting. The protestors continued shouting until everyone had left the building.

The protestors were creating a lot of noise and their chants were not only against WPUK, they included obscenities aimed at the police. The footage supports the reports made by Chief Inspector Sproston and Inspector Lovell. There was no violence and no serious disorder.

Using the core principles, and legal framework set out by the College of Policing in their Authorised Professional Practice, I am satisfied that the event was policed lawfully, proportionately and appropriately.

The Professional Standards Department will retain a copy of your complaint and the local resolution outcome."

OP posts:
MsMcWibble · 05/02/2020 07:44

My goodness! Well, there we have it for all to see. I wouldn't report. Much better to let these things stand.
I do have a bible. I thought it was important to read such a significant document. It was so boring though, and the print was really small...
Also I realised that I hate religion. It always seems to me to be about men telling women how to behave.
Now there is a new religion. As unhinged and nonsensical and misogynistic as any of the others, and I'm still not buying it.

DickKerrLadies · 05/02/2020 07:45

Well, that was an unexpected turn of events at the end there. Well I say unexpected, being called things along the lines of right-wing bible bashers isn't really new or unusual. Although it has been at least a couple of days since I saw it.

It seems that the catalyst was being asked to explain what was meant by 'thinking and acting like a woman'. And then without any answer the poster just resorted to flinging insults. How unoriginal.

But people on FWR posting in bad faith never happens of course... Hmm

OhDeez · 05/02/2020 07:49

He only thinks he does because he has no idea how a woman feels or acts.

How do you know?

OhDeez · 05/02/2020 07:51

You've all said that you feel and act like men/women. No difference.

If that's the case? QED

DickKerrLadies · 05/02/2020 07:51

OhDeez!

Can you please explain to me how women and transwomen think and act compared to how men and transmen think and act? Thanks in advance.

DickKerrLadies · 05/02/2020 07:52

I don't believe I feel like a woman. I don't understand what that means.

Hence, asking for clarification from you.

OhDeez · 05/02/2020 07:53

This reply has been deleted

Message deleted by MNHQ. Here's a link to our Talk Guidelines.

MsMcWibble · 05/02/2020 07:55

'Feel like a woman'? I am a woman and share things with other women due to our biology and socialisation, and that's it.
I don't care what's in someone's head when it comes to single sex spaces. I care about their sex.

DickKerrLadies · 05/02/2020 07:56

You're stupid.

Bit rude.

Why can't people just be nice round here?!

OhDeez · 05/02/2020 07:57

I am compassionate, I feel emotions a lot, I cry more than men, I like chick flicks, I have a maternal instinct, basically I'm more intuitive emotionally than men.

Men couldn't give a shit, are generally competitive at the expense of anyone else, they don't feel enough to make them cry, they like war films, war games, they find children a nice endorsement of their manhood but lack the feminine touch and they are like bulls in china shops when it comes to emotions.

MsMcWibble · 05/02/2020 07:58

Are we going to get to 'you smell' soon?

ItsLateHumpty · 05/02/2020 07:58

TheProdigalKittensReturn

Buzz - knows his stuff Grin

I came back to see if there was a dance off in the offing. It'd make as much sense as some of the posts here 🤷‍♀️

DickKerrLadies · 05/02/2020 07:58

Anyway, I'll forgive your rudeness.

I have never felt like a girl or a woman. I have never 'identified' with women.

I've asked and asked people to explain what they mean by this 'feeling' that they just know that they feel like a man or a woman and nobody can. I get ignored or I get insulted.

And we're told that we're the ones who are mean!

refusetobeasheep · 05/02/2020 07:59

The mask slips ....

OhDeez · 05/02/2020 08:00

I guarantee that transgenderism will be have a proven scientific basis within the next 10 years.
In the meantime, you just continue persecuting those who you fear MAY persecute you.
You're in more danger from a man than a transgender woman.

MsMcWibble · 05/02/2020 08:00

I never cry. I hate chick flicks. I have no maternal instinct.
My husband cried at a bit of Mozart yesterday.
Luckily we don't feel we have to buy into regressive gender stereotypes.

Langsdestiny · 05/02/2020 08:00

Shit I dont like chick flicks, what can this possibly mean?

ItsLateHumpty · 05/02/2020 08:00

I too asked about that feeling earlier on the thread DickKerr and got called a cunt. Didn't really help the conversation along I must say.

SophocIestheFox · 05/02/2020 08:00

So, bringing this creakingly back to the actual topic of the thread, would I be right in thinking, ohdeez, with your enthusiasm for arresting people for "facilitating transphobia", that you feel that the main deficiency of the policing of the WPUK meeting was that the police didn't arrest enough enough of the women attending?

TheProdigalKittensReturn · 05/02/2020 08:00

I guess it makes sense that some people self identify as kind and compassionate...

(I don't like "chick flicks". I own Pacific Rim on DVD though. Shall we play guess the gender?)

OhDeez · 05/02/2020 08:01

This reply has been deleted

Message deleted by MNHQ. Here's a link to our Talk Guidelines.

DickKerrLadies · 05/02/2020 08:02

Ha, I wish my child could get a diagnosis as quick as that!

midegbabe · 05/02/2020 08:02

I am struggling to understand what is meant by "how a boy with a penis can feel like a girl"

Perhaps you could help me out and expand?

To help, here's how I know I am female, despite spending many years thinking there had been a mistake and I was a boy called David in reality

If they grab their privates, that's one way of feeling
If they get raped or told they are too assertive for promotion, they might feel something, although more likely anger at the injustice , but it is likely a feeling they share with other women

But if we as a group of women can not describe beyond our biology what it means to be female , why can a boy suddenly tell us it's what he feels?

TheProdigalKittensReturn · 05/02/2020 08:02

Aha! I was wondering where this was going to go next. Can't wait till Spartacus wakes up.

OhDeez · 05/02/2020 08:02

Nope - SophocIestheFox. But MNhq will face consequences soon enough.