Help please - evidence required lesbians & trans lesbians debate

[midclegs]

I've just been told, in response to a message to a woke friend in NZ about the LGB pulling away from the LBTQ, because lesbians are being erased, is "bullshit". I am talking "bullshit", apparently.

This is a really old 30-yr long friendship. If he doesn't want to be a friend after evidence than fine.
But could you great lot please provide links, evidence to prove otherwise?

Are either of you lesbians? Its hard to understand a point of view when your not their I suppose

Get the l out being banned from pride?

Just seen he is a he does he believe in lady dick? and is he willing to date a pre OP transgender? Or one who believes their penis is female and therefore they are female and he needs to accept it?

We're always on the back foot being asked for evidence to prove what has always been obvious.

What is his argument that they aren't? Chuck it back at him. If you were in UK I'd ask how the stonewall definition of lesbian as same gender attracted, not same sex attracted, is anything other than homophobic/ lesbian erasure.

Ah I know.

Ask him what his definition of lesbian is. Take it from there.

Put it back to him.

Sorry, I'm stressed. I posted a mildly GC post on FB. I'm not a lesbian, but I posted the link to the article about the CPS re schools and he said he thought i was reasonable as it should be ok to protect gay people. I said that LGB rights are diff to T rights. Sorry - I'm struggling here -this is a guy that saw me through my anorexia.

*it was reasonable

If he's a friend of 30 years and has been such a good friend,

Honestly I'd say look, let's not talk about this subject as we're just going to disagree. And agree to shelve it.

I doubt he'll listen to you and as you say you're stressed. This is a v divisive topic.

Will he agree to disagree and drop subject if you ask?

Is this from the founder of Stonewall any help?

www.holyrood.com/inside-politics/view,cofounder-of-stonewall-calls-for-calm_14648.htm?

"Fanshawe believes that the Stonewall of today is undermining the rights of lesbians and putting women and girls at risk by “unthinkingly” merging the rights of lesbians and gays with those of trans people through its ‘acceptance without exception’ dogma..."

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3294339-cotton-ceiling-evidence-thread

Also the Boxer Ceiling on FB is back up after temporarily being taken down (no reason given), the Admin is GC supportive of Lesbians and posts things on there about how transphobic it is to have a 'genital preference' with clear arguments as to why it's nonsense.

You can always share the video Magdalen Burns take down of Riley J Denis too.

Have you seen the report "Lesbians at Ground Zero"?

www.gettheloutuk.com/blog/category/research/lesbians-at-ground-zero.html

When he says it's bullshit, does he mean that he thinks there is no problem in the community of lesbians pulling away? Or more that he thinks that the reasons they would do that are bullshit?

If it's the former, you might point out that some have moved away from Stonewall, or point to some of the issues at Pride, that sort of thing. Keeping in mind, things might look quite different from a NZ perspective, the political scene could be quite different.

I don't know if I'd engage too much if its the latter, some people find the cotton ceiling stuff illuminating, or Yaniv. But I think for many people, it just seems to crazy to believe they assume its just a few real weirdos and doesn't represent anything more. Part of that is that it really is difficult to see from what appears in the media how widespread certain things are, we all know that it can give the impression that something marginal is common, and so people mistrust what they see. Especially if it seems completely nutty.

I would agree not to discuss it if he's been a good friend for a long time. Chances are in time he may see it, as eventually its all going to come out.

Given that less than 40 lesbians took part in last year's big march in Leeds and an attempt at a 'dear lesbians, come and tell us your problems with trans people' thread had more straight people waffling on than lesbians taking part, perhaps most lesbians don't have a problem with trans people.

I have never been in a situation like this, but wondered as he is somebody you say has supported you in the past why he feels able to just say something that you feel is bullshit.

Can you turn it round and ask him why he thinks is bullshit, let him explain to you. Dont let him push it on to you to do all the ground work.

(Then you can post his comments and we could help you with put downs. )

The fact that over 40 lesbians felt able to be out together (pun not intended) is a public place at a time they are under attack from both straight men and woke Stonewall followers is quite an achievement.

And sneering at women trying to be supportive is childish, particularly when you must be aware it was set up in reponse to the thread about the pressure one woman had experienced as a lesbian in an increasingly queer environment.

Given that when it suits them the newspapers will report protests of 10 and less the more relevant question would be why wasn't it more widely reported?

Just a reminder of why some lesbians are feeling under attack
www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3621239-Being-a-homosexual-female-in-a-community-of-queer-people-transbians-and-penis-inclusionary-lesbians

I said that LGB rights are diff to T rights.

It sounds like he's making a knee jerk argument of 'no, trans rights are important too.'

I think it can be really hard for some males to respect women’s experiences and opinions, let alone lesbians’ specifically (noting that lesbians are not a monolith, so obviously don’t all think the same).

Can you agree to disagree on this , perhaps ?

I’d be tempted to ask if he agrees that gender is fluid, and if that means sex is fluid, and what those things actually mean for homosexual people whether or not they’re male or female. Draw him out with questions and let him reach his own conclusions?

@snowblight

I'm a lesbian. Do I have a problem with trans people? No. Am I prepared to have sex with a trans woman who has a penis? Hell, no. I do not do penises. End of. No amount of sneering from you is going to change that. My body, my choice of sexual partner.

Given that less than 40 lesbians took part in last year's big march in Leeds and an attempt at a 'dear lesbians, come and tell us your problems with trans people' thread had more straight people waffling on than lesbians taking part, perhaps most lesbians don't have a problem with trans people.

Saying that lesbians don't want to date male people or be pressured into sex with them isn't lesbians 'having a problem with them'.
It's simply asking for their sexual orientation and boundaries to be respected.
The fact that so many people think lesbians saying 'no' is bigotry has demonstrated just how deep lesbophobia goes in society.