Help please - evidence required lesbians & trans lesbians debate

[midclegs]

I've just been told, in response to a message to a woke friend in NZ about the LGB pulling away from the LBTQ, because lesbians are being erased, is "bullshit". I am talking "bullshit", apparently.

This is a really old 30-yr long friendship. If he doesn't want to be a friend after evidence than fine.
But could you great lot please provide links, evidence to prove otherwise?

Someone sent me this the other day. I haven’t had a full read of the site yet nor know much about them but its about a lesbian group banned from Pride in NZ

lesbian-rights-nz.org/2019/03/14/getting-the-l-out-of-the-park/

There’s some other stuff there including a depressing page of screenshots of the abuse lesbians get online from TRAs

lesbian-rights-nz.org/shame-receipts/

Unfortunately I would think that whatever evidence you can provide would be sadly dismissed though

Well. That didn't go well. How & why have people become so blinkered (and in so many areas of life)? This is a really intelligent man.
Sigh. Thanks for your support. I can only think there's something / someone in his life that made him lash out at me so..

midclegs - Is your friend's disbelief because he thinks that all transwomen are "Homosexual Transsexuals" (HSTS), ie. attracted to men, when in fact the vast majority are attracted to women? This seems to be quite a common misconception.

A few Cotton Ceiling videos from different perspectives - there are many more on YouTube:

The Cotton Ceiling by Gender Critiques
"A brief introduction on what the cotton ceiling is."

More on This Creepy Cotton Ceiling Business by terri strange
(Lesbian petitioning against the 2012 Cotton Ceiling workshops for transwomen wanting, according to the organiser, "to get laid")

The Cotton Ceiling and bigotry against sexual orientations by Kizzume
( terfisaslur.com/cotton-ceiling/ )

The Cotton Ceiling: A Post Modern Affront to Lesbianism by Magdalen Burns
"Simple critique the "cotton ceiling" is a term coined by creepy porn star Drew DeVeaux which rationalises coercively guilt tripping lesbians into sex with penis-bearers."

RE: "I'm Transphobic Because I Like Boobs & Vagina" by Magdalen Burns
"Magdalen Berns responds to Arielle Scarcella’s diplomatic question "Where do we draw the line when it comes to respect for ones sexuality and respect for ones gender?" with a critical perspective on the "cotton ceiling" (the claim that lesbians who refuse to validate the gender identity of heterosexual MtT people, by pretending not to be lesbians, are "transphobic") and the antithetical relationship between the LG (i.e. homosexuals) and QT ("queer"/"questioning" and transgender) "liberation" movements."

RE: "Are genital preferences transphobic?" Give it up, Riley! by Magdalen Burns
"Riley thinks "the answer is more complicated than you might think". Magdalen has heard the line #TheresMoreToItThanThat many times before and isn't buying what Riley is selling either..."

Protect Lesbians From Men Who Claim to Be Lesbians by Erin Brewer
"Trans activists not only insist they are women, they also insist they can be lesbians. They want to break through the "cotton ceiling" and insist that a lesbian who does't want to have sex with a trans woman is transphobic. Trans allies are trying to take over women's safe spaces, and threatening violence against anyone who objects. We need to stand up to these bullies."

Trans Women and Radfems/ Terfs by Spooky Rad Luka
"rape and sexual abuse/cotton ceiling mention"
(Rad Fem Transman reads and comments on script by friend who is a 'dysphoric biological male' about the cotton ceiling - both have been called "TERFs" and "transphobes" by trans activists)

What is the Cotton Ceiling - Angela Wild #GetTheLOut - Filia 2019

LESBIANS AT GROUND ZERO: LESBIANS AND THE COTTON CEILING

A number of transactivists on social media have shared the view that they are discriminated against because some lesbians refuse to have sex with them, propagating the idea that lesbianism is “transphobic”. Get The L out Lesbian activist group investigated this phenomenon called the “cotton ceiling” and published in March 2019 a research showing that lesbians are under huge pressure within LGBT communities to accept without question that “transwoman are women”, with implications for lesbians to be able to name themselves lesbians and lead a lesbian life.

This talk details the findings of the research and discuss the political implications of these findings for lesbians, L/GBT groups, charities and organisation and women-only spaces.

This talk was recorded at Filia conference in Bradford on the 19/10/2019

It's Ok to exclude dick from lesbianism by Pippa Fleming

Consent and Cotton Ceilings Mike Harlow
(Gay man explains how he politely rejected sexual advances by a transman and then a transwoman criticised him for his "sexual choice")

(That last one can't be the only one from the perspective of a gay man as I have come across videos by transmen and detrans women demonstrating that gay men are being similarly harassed. For gay men though it seems to be just at a personal level, rather than a "takeover" of gay spaces.)

I recall reading a great Jonny Best article. I think it was on Medium. That might help?

Sandwich he's not writing on medium anymore medium.com/@JonnnyBest/my-writing-is-no-longer-on-medium-1e9207d0b5c4
(Or was that your point).

I feel so incredibly disheartened this morning - I'm not sure the friendship can be rescued. Or maybe that I want it to, which is confusing as I care about this man v much!

The trouble is @midclegs is that he’s shown he’s the type of person happy to Chuck women’s rights & fears & concerns under a bus and worse that he’s not prepared to even consider an alternative view

This is the hardest thing about all this - once people have shown you that, it’s hard to feel the same way about them again

Yes Kit I think you're right.
I've muted our conversation for now. Him telling me the South Dakota law is dumb did it for me.

I’m sorry, I’ve lost friends too over this xx it sucks to realise how some men see our rights as disposable yet I’m certain if he fancied a shag he’d know exactly the sex of the person to look for

True Kit - he did try many moons ago! Sigh. Woke bloke again.

Show him a picture of Danielle Muscato or a screenshot of Muscato saying on Twitter on International Women’s Day a couple of years ago that feminists who didn’t accept them as a woman could “suck my dick.”

And I agree - ask him if he’d enter into a romantic and fully sexual relationship with a transwoman.

You could also google “cotton ceiling.”

Sorry hadn’t RTFT and see there’s a fantastic list of cotton ceiling references.

I find the idea of “breaking through” the cotton ceiling (ie the crotch of women’s underpants) very rapey. Really awful.

Op here is a link to the website terf is a slur.

Tell him to look at number four, the cotton stealing and Autogynephilia.

Straight from the horses mouth.

That'll do it.

terfisaslur.com/cotton-ceiling/

When people say that LGB rights are different to T rights I have trouble seeing that point of view. What about trans people in biologically same sex relationships e.g. trans women with men and trans men with women? We do exist in probably more frequent numbers than are mentioned. Experience has suggested to me that the general rights of both sides of this particular coin are very much intertwined and it is in the interests of people who will more than likely challenge the rights of other demographics once they have successfully split the T from the LGB. Perhaps I'm wrong who knows?

When people say that LGB rights are different to T rights I have trouble seeing that point of view.
Its because they are different things, the same way that women's rights aren't the same thing as gay rights.
They can intersect e.g a woman may be affected by both if she is a lesbian, but the two have different histories, different sources of oppression and different legislation required to protect them.
It's the same for trans rights and LGB rights.
They may have some overlap with individuals but sexual orientation and gender identity are two very different things.

I know they are different things but, my rights as a trans person and my rights as a biological homosexual are very much intertwined. A lot of the same issues affect me due to both characteristics. As such it has made sense that the protections I have apply equally to both characteristics. Our sources of oppression come from very much the same direction, normally heterosexual men but increasingly so women. The type of people who are likely to discriminate against me are very unlikely to think very deeply about the differences between my medically diagnosed status and my sexuality.

I wonder if they are treated totally separately how i was to be dealt with? As a trans person, if I attend a support group for LGB am I to be excluded because I am T or do we just exclude biologically heterosexual transsexuals? Then of course the lines blare even more in the case of the bi-sexual transsexual. In general, granted not always it just makes life easier for the two to be grouped together, especially for organisational purposes. That is not to say that there aren't times when gay men's groups. lesbian women's groups or just trans only groups aren't appropriate. I just don't see a need to split the two. I can see there are some who do however, I believe those that are driving that narrative have a far bigger prize in mind.

As far as sleeping with other people goes, I am a firm believer that people can sleep with whoever they like as long as it is consensual, not coerced and based on truth. If another homosexual person wants to identify in a particular way it is certainly not for me to police their identity. There is far too much of that in this world already.

What about trans people in biologically same sex relationships e.g. trans women with men and trans men with women?

I wonder if the fact that you're able to put it this way (ie recognising the difference between biological sex and presenting in a gendered way) means that you may be more consciously aware of the ways in which there are distinctions, even if you experience an overlap.

I think everyone experiences an overlap of aspects of their identity - we all have facets of our identity - lesbian women, for example, will probably recognise that their civil rights as women, and for their sexuality, are intertwined, although for different aspects/areas/issues in their lives the balance between these rights may alter.

However, I really need to disagree with your point that women discriminate against transpeople. Most of the individual behaviour and the non-individual activism/extremism is enacted by transwomen (biologically male) towards women's rights generally - rights to single sex spaces, etc etc etc.

And transwomen are/were socialised as male, and treated with all the advantages we call masculine privilege - in spite of the ways in which a transperson's gender/bodily dysphoria may have made them feel individually that they took no advantage or pleasure from that male privilege.

I think a lot of the transactivist behaviour and strategy (such as it is) is driven by an assumption of male privilege, actually. The evidence of what happens when TRAs' wants and demands are opposed - and particularly opposed by women (how dare they?!!) suggests that they are not used to be told "No. Other people's actual rights are more important than your demands."

So please don't try the old DARVO trick on us @statsgeek You are otherwise making some sense and at least you're trying to discuss and engage. Will you now listen?

I have never claimed to be personally oppressed I was referring to groups of people. But, I can see a poor choice of words could lead you to think that. To suggest that some women are not feeling emboldened in recent years to abuse either gay or transsexual people would be short sighted.

Of course, if a particular look or opinion in a particular place is of importance to you then who am i to argue? Whether you believe me or not is of little consequence, it is just my opinion based on my experience.

I'm not quite sure what DARVO means to be honest but, in the main I agree with what you say. Trans people have got on fine for a long time based on decades of a mutual trust and non invasive behaviour.

You are definitely right to say that i do recognise the differences between my biological sex and my general every day experience. It would be folly not to. There will come a time when certain parts of my anatomy need to be considered with respect to my biology and it would be dangerous to do otherwise.

'biological homosexual'

This is an idea that is being pushed away though, with the framing of biology as inconsequential and internal feeling of gender as the important thing.

This naturally causes issues when it comes to women's rights and LGB rights.

Stonewall site has this to say (just had a look):

'So, could a lesbian have a trans woman as a lesbian partner, or a gay man be with a trans man?
Of course. If they fancy each other. First and foremost, we need to recognise that trans women are women, and trans men are men. After that it becomes a matter of who you are attracted to. Adults are free to have relationships with other consenting adults, whatever their sexual orientation or gender identity. '

I mean that all sounds lovely and warm, but it totally undermines the definitions of lesbian and homosexual.

Of course people can and should have relationships and sex with anyone they fancy who fancies them. But the framing of lesbian as a person who could well do dick is not good at all. For reasons I'm sure I don't need to go into on fwr.

'To suggest that some women are not feeling emboldened in recent years to abuse either gay or transsexual people would be short sighted.'

Who has always been the most risk to women, children, gay men, lesbians and a host of other groups? It's men. Everyone knows it's men.

Yes you get violent, nasty women. But men are by far and away the biggest threat across the board.

It's bothersome that the prevailing trans orgs etc essentially go after women and girls, insist they put their doubts and instincts aside, and be nice

Rather than working together with feminists on the massive problem of male violence esp male sexual violence.

A lot of women in here would have been natural allies. Many women in here have been active in LGB+ for years. I find it amazing that all these long term leftie often lesbian activists are being framed as right wing bigots rather than saying, hold on, these are good women, they have been fighting for minorities for decades, why are they not getting behind this?

Sorry for multiple posts.

(I always apologise for that... Female socialisation is a thing..)

But men are by far and away the biggest threat across the board

Yup. 98% of sexual violence is perpetrated by men - and while other kinds of crime have slightly higher levels of female perpetrators, men are by and large far more likely to commit violent acts against other people.

FrogsFrogs

You are right that the importance of biology appears to be playing less part in what was traditionally viewed as gay relationships. Personally, similarly to another poster I would say, 'I don't do vagina' but, I really honestly can't say how important that is to me. I assume I prefer someone with a penis but, equally I can look at some trans men of whom I have absolutely no idea of their anatomical configuration and find them sexually attractive. Does that mean I have given up the right to think of myself and identify as gay? If so, who says so, what makes their definition the right definition and even if it is the right definition today why should it always remain so in a clearly evolving world?

If a lesbian woman has a trans partner without a penis, do we demand that she no longer a identifies as lesbian and demand that the biological aspect based on chromosomes alone, externally at least at this point should trump how she feels? How is the outside likely to see them at a glance which after all is how we see most that are not in our personal circle? Of course if you know them, you may have an opinion but, i think it would take a very strong opinion to challenge their sense of self and even an arrogance to think their identities should comply to that opinion.

You are right to say men have always been the cause of most risk and they still are by a long way. That isn't to that an increase in hate crime against all sorts of minorities doesn't involve an increasing number of women offenders. I'd like to have the confidence of the earlier poster who didn't believe me but, sadly, I don't think all women would show her level of compassion to trans and gay people. Even so, such compassion and understanding is nice to see.

It is bothersome that some trans organisations seem at odds with women's rights. Especially in times of an emboldened right wing driven by puppets like Trump and Johnson who are merely just convenient faces of a nasty underbelly of authoritarianism that has little time for both LGBT people and women irrespective of their sexuality.

I was of the opinion apologising was an English thing a bit like queueing but I'm willing to be corrected.