Man in the changing rooms

[bananafritters]

I was just in my university gym female changing rooms and a man walked in with his female friend. I don't know what this man identified as but he was definitely male He didn't use a locker, didn't change his shoes or anything, just sat and chatted to his female friend whilst she put stuff in the lockers.

I felt very very uncomfortable with this. Fortunately I wasn't getting changed but others were and it just didn't feel right with me. I felt like I couldn't complain about it because I fear I would have been called transphobic in the event that he identified as a trans women.

Someone needs to wake up to this self ID nonsense - exactly this. I wish they bloody would. I'm sick to the back fucking teeth of this.

Adam's apple?

What might be civilised is to allow me to get my matronly belly and all my scars out in public without fearing a bloke having a laugh at my discomfort and knowing that a woman would have an inkling of what may have happened to me and feel some sympathy/empathy/whatever.

Given that a man chooses to go in the safe space of women just because he can and only to talk to his female companion rather than feel the female need to use the facilities, suggests he hasn’t got any empathy in the first place.

So now I don’t swim or visit the gym (and I really need to) and I order clothes on line.

Still, I can go between the kitchen and bedroom easily enough - which is probably the point.

I’ll be sympathetic towards their discrimination when I am afforded the same courtesy.

The gym is basically my safe haven [...] the panic attack that any conflict surrounding either challenging them or being questioning by staff would be enough to make me never go back.

And that is why, bananafritters, we must preserve single-sex spaces for women that blanket ban anyone born male from using them. It cannot be up to individual women having to speak up to challenge transgressors, society cannot expect those who are vulnerable and rely upon its protection to challenge those violating their boundaries.

The law has provided for a limited number of female-only set asides for our protection, privacy and dignity. Where these are provided as intended, very few men dare to transgress into them, because the social taboo is so strong.

It's so strong that not too long ago, abusive husbands would stop at the door to the ladies, because they knew if they went in they would not only be challenged by the other women in the ladies, but also by any men nearby. We policed each other on this and it worked. That's why we didn't need to have signs up saying access prohibited.

We already know that this social taboo is breaking down and those providing support to victims of male violence are finding their opportunities to help (which are often fleeting, rare and painfully inadequate) are disappearing.

So no, I wouldn't expect you to challenge a person like that. I would however consider writing a polite email to management asking for clarification, explaining that this was a chap who casually walked in to a changing room where women were undressing to chat to his friend without giving due regard to the other users.

There are butch and gender non conforming transwomen. Expecting TW to conform to femininity and to stereotypes is discriminatory

Cool.

So how does anybody tell the difference between if the person in the bathroom is male, and if they're one of the above? Or is the answer to just budge up and not mind if males who want to get up to np good in women's spaces also walk through the door?

"Expecting TW to conform to femininity and to stereotypes is discriminatory" but surely they are only women in that they conform to gender stereotypes.

'Living as a woman' doesn't mean housework and childcare it means dresses and heels.

If ‘butch’ and non conforming trans women are female, what makes you think that they would feel comfortable with a bloke in their midst.

Acquaintances of mine would not. Or are they just as ‘awkward and discriminatory’ as me?

Expecting TW to conform to femininity and to stereotypes is discriminatory

See this is something I can't get my head around, a woman is born female, her sex is female, and that is what distinguishes her as a female human being. She can choose whether or not to conform to feminine gender roles (a societal construct) or not - regardless, she remains female.

A transwoman is born male - but feels their "gender identity" is female - if they are not conforming to feminine gender roles, what makes them a transwoman? A "transition" is a physical thing - the law calls it "living as a woman" - they cannot change their biological sex - they can only change the way their body looks with drugs/surgery and their external presentation. Is living as a woman as simple as changing your name?

I guess my question is what makes them trans, if they haven't physically transitioned?

And, Barracker's point remains - regardless of how a male presents, he remains male, and shouldn't be in women's single sex spaces.

My friend has been challenged more than once as to why she is in the female toilets, as she looks very masculine (she is married with kids). Last time I was with her and I was more upset than she was. I guess my point is that you sometimes aren’t 100% sure of someone’s gender

I understand. I'm, shall we say, an androgynous looking woman and I've been challenged in female spaces. But , you know what? I'll tolerate the occasional discomfiture, if genuinely well intended, in order to preserve the single sex, safe spaces for the majority, and sometimes vulnerable, population (me included).

You can't sell the rights of women down the swanny merely because I choose to shave my head, which leads to the occasional assumption that I'm male. Just not cricket, is it?

There are butch and gender non conforming transwomen. Expecting TW to conform to femininity and to stereotypes is discriminatory

Sorry what?

"butch" has been used to denote masculine appearance and styles in a female since the 1940s

And aren't males who identify as trans traditionally gender-non-conforming, that is these are males who show a preference for an appearance, mannerisms, behaviours stereotypically associated with the female sex?

Gender is a straitjacket of socially constructed sex stereotypes and sex role stereotypes society attempts to force us into. In your example which straitjacket is the male in question rebelling against as a "gender-non-conforming transwoman"?

So butch, and wearing the straitjacket constructed for men then? Yes? So, to put it in other terms

Butch and gender-non-conforming transwomen

males who identify as trans who are masculine and conform to male sex and male sex role stereotypes

So for all appearances individuals then, who are male, who look like men and behave like men but who claim a female identity by verbally claiming one?

It's a massive expansion of that the GRA 2004 was introduced for - what do we call that? A sort of mission creep.

GRA was introduced for the approx 5k severely dysphoric people in the UK, to allow them to live their lives comfortably as the opposite sex - it doesn't physically make them the opposite sex - but allows them to avoid embarrassment over their birth certificate (and presumably, back in 2004, their passport/driving license etc) to match the gender they were trying to pass as.

Over the past decade or so, this seems to have changed to "I am a woman because I say am, and although I present fully as a man, and retain my fully male body, but I'm coming in the female changing room. Because I feel like a woman in my head."

How can that be right?

Could it have been a transman?

I can't believe some of you are still claiming you don't know the difference between male and female.

regardless of how a male presents, he remains male, and shouldn't be in women's single sex spaces.

This.

The lengths people will go to in order to not have to acknowledge that men are entitled arseholes. The level.of gaslighting on this thread is horrific . Believe me these men that everyones trying to get off the hook so to speak wouldnt spit on you if you were on fire. Why. Why try and find ways to pretend it never happened. The human.species has managed to differentiate between men and women since the dawn of time or wed not even be here. Dont insult the op and make out she cant possibly know what she saw.

I wonder what the % would be if this was in AIBU.

Are you sure he was male?
How was he dressed?

WTF? My Gym has a strict rule. Any Boys over 8 years old have to go in the Mens Changing Rooms. My DD is 8. We go swimming a lot. She has no issues around her body. Yet I can see she is starting to develop. I've seen boys in the Ladies changing rooms getting dressed / undressed for swimming lessons. Some of them look about 8 or possibly more. They glance at DD sometimes. And sometimes they do more than glance. They ogle. Because at the end of the day, she has a female body. Most recently, one Mum chose to get dressed in one of only 2 private cubicles while her 2 sons wreaked havoc and got dressed next to us. I've now chosen to ask DD to change in the cubicle while I get dressed in the public space. So Fucking Yay, I get to have pre pubescent males ogling my breasts etc. No problem eh? While their Mum gets her privacy. If I had a fully grown Male in there chatting to his female friend thinking they were Oh So Woke, I'd be telling them to Fuck Off.

Except it's not that easy is it?

Whilst it's very heartening to hear some women feel safe to tell a man in a womens bathroom or changing room to fuck off, others of us painfully know that doing that can get us very badly hurt or worse.

Men have men's areas, and women's facilities now. It is not safe. Why are women's needs for single sex areas secondary to validation stations for men who want their cake and eat it too? Why aren't people outside of the GC community worried about the murder rates of women by men, or female suicide rates and mental health issues as a result of this forced intrusion into female spaces. Why are women expected to budge up? I'ld love for my non GC sisters and the dudes they protect to answer these questions.

Where are actual cunty women meant to use the bathroom?

@LeDetroit I didn't put this in the op as it's not relevant really but I'm recovering mentally from a suicide attempt less than a month ago and the gym is what is keeping me going at the moment.

Any conflict would cause a panic attack and currently every panic attack causes suicidal feelings which is naturally really scary and I'm trying to avoid situations which make me feel like that.

So I'm in the position of being made to feel uncomfortable with a male in a single sex space and not being able to confront it in anyway because because the fear of the conflict is just too much for me to cope with at the moment.

I simply shouldn't be put in that position in the first place.

You absolutely should not be put in that position. No way. I'm so glad to hear you are with us and hopefully recovering.

I'm camping out in winter due to not being able to handle men in dresses in women's shelters. It's not fucking fair, but noone cares about us, except our GC sisters. I have to use public bathrooms. No choice.

I am thinking of you and sending you strength and support.

to both of you. I'm sorry males don't have the decency to respect your boundaries.

Believe me these men that everyones trying to get off the hook so to speak wouldnt spit on you if you were on fire.

In fact a fair few have invited women to go 'die in a (grease) fire'.

I guess there will always be women happy to set themselves on fire to keep a man warm.

OP I'm sorry you had this experience and some of the questions on this thread.

Detriot hope you're going well

Nah...these women are only willing to sacrifice their more vulnerable sisters while these moves don't really affect them

Nah...these women are only willing to sacrifice their more vulnerable sisters while these moves don't really affect them

Yeah erm...I'm.puzzled as to where they think its gonna get them. We all know what happens when men get what they want. They bugger off never to be seen again. You become surplus to requirements. There will be no thanks or rewards for your sacrifices and this is one time you cannot expect anyone to forgive you.Time to move on from the " hes gonna call me" days and face reality. Cos this time it's not just a few friends getting tired of yet another boy drama. This is the entire population of women losing their rights to safe single sex spaces.

Sorry for what's happening to you Detroit

for you bananafritters, and Detroit too.

May I ask you a question, bananafritters? If that same person had come into the women’s changing rooms, still visibly, clearly of the male sex, but wearing clothes that are typically associated with women, and maybe with some make up and a “feminine” hairstyle - how would you have felt then? Would you then have believed this person to be trans? And if you believed that, would it have changed how you felt in this specific situation?

No problem if you don’t want to answer that, but would appreciate it if you do.