Man in the changing rooms

[bananafritters]

I was just in my university gym female changing rooms and a man walked in with his female friend. I don't know what this man identified as but he was definitely male He didn't use a locker, didn't change his shoes or anything, just sat and chatted to his female friend whilst she put stuff in the lockers.

I felt very very uncomfortable with this. Fortunately I wasn't getting changed but others were and it just didn't feel right with me. I felt like I couldn't complain about it because I fear I would have been called transphobic in the event that he identified as a trans women.

Aren't you supposed to tut?

@XXcstatic don’t be obtuse. The feminist section is full of anti trans bullshit. The “i can’t say anything coz I’m going to be victimised” spiel doesn’t wash. Use you’re bloody common sense. If someone looks like a man and is in the female changing rooms I tell them to f*ck off. Consequences of that? Infinitesimally small

If you see anti-trans bullshit @Strongmummy you should report it.

If someone looks like a man and is in the female changing rooms I tell them to fck off.*

Oh good for you.

Of course, you understand why some women, particularly those who have suffered male violence, don't feel able to that?

And of course, you realise if you tell someone who self IDs as a transwoman that, it is you, not the transwoman who will be asked to leave.

This sounds like exactly what we've been arguing would happen - men entering women's spaces for shits and giggles, precisely because they now know they can

Even if it isn't deliberate and for "shits and giggles", these types of rules allow men to make the logical leap from "men who (say they) identify as women but are clearly male being allowed into to female spaces", to "there is no difference between that and me (a man who knows he is a man) entering female spaces". Men are as capable of identifying men as we are. If one man is allowed in, then why not all of them? You can't fault the logic.

Maybe that's the end objective, no sex-segregated spaces. When you deny the existence of sex groups you wipe out the possibility of one sex group being disadvantaged in relation to another. And guess who wins there?

If someone looks like a man...
Oh good, you know how to tell one - can you perhaps list the visible characteristics involved in "looking like a man" please?

There are posters on this thread who are unsure how to identify a man when they see one. The first response to the OP was
"How did you know he was definitely male?"

It would be supremely helpful if you could explain, StrongMummy.

"Someone looks like a man if he looks like this:"
etc

Over to you

Use you’re bloody common sense. If someone looks like a man and is in the female changing rooms I tell them to fck off. Consequences of that? Infinitesimally small*

You obviously have no recent experience of university policies. These tend to make it clear that individuals can use the changing rooms pertaining to their (self-identified) gender, and that this should not be challenged.

I have some pretty significant mental health problems. The gym is basically my safe haven at the moment. I felt discomfort at a man being in the changing room however the panic attack that any conflict surrounding either challenging them or being questioning by staff would be enough to make me never go back. Questions such as "how did you know they were male?" which have been asked on this thread and are fairly loaded imo.

I find it hard to believe that a male willing to enter a female space blatantly and casually would take well to being told to fuck off. He shouldn't have been there in the first place.

women are generally able to tell if a person is a man

I agree. But what some of us are trying to understand here is: is this just your common or garden variety of man, or is this someone presenting in a way that would make one think they were wanting to present as a woman?

(Very tricky to get that sentence out without offending various factions).

@Fieldofgreycorn I didn't look at him and think "oh that's a transwomen", I looked and thought "oh that's a man with purple hair". Not hyper masculine by any stretch but didn't appear to be presenting as feminine either.

And of course, you realise if you tell someone who self IDs as a transwoman that, it is you, not the transwoman who will be asked to leave.

Well, it bloody shouldn't be!!!! Self ID is a load of fucking cockcustard when it come to women's spaces. I don't personally care what the male in my changing room identifies as: they should not be there to identify as anything! And yes, I would challenge it. And if it were me asked to leave, then I would do so. But, rest assured ..... that would not be the last of it.

This shit is a now getting utterly ridiculous. FFS women threw themselves under the king's horse to secure the rights I have. I'm not prepared to let some hairy-arsed male snatch those rights away under the guise of self-id/trans rights or whatever.

If you're a male wanting to identify as a woman, then go ahead. I'm happy. You can come and work in my team anytime: I will welcome you with open arms if you can do the job. What you can't do is invade women only spaces and upset society's vulnerable majority And, if you were a half decent transwoman, you'd understand that. And if you don't understand it, then you're nowhere close enough to being a woman to identify as one.

I didn't look at him and think "oh that's a transwomen", I looked and thought "oh that's a man with purple hair". Not hyper masculine by any stretch but didn't appear to be presenting as feminine either

In the insane world we live in he'll probably tell you that if he wasn't wearing a 3 piece suit, bowler hat and a briefcase (ideally inscribed "MAN") then you just have no right to presume he is one.

Slightly OT but where do the agender/non-binary/genderqueer/gender non-conforming etc etc etc through the alphabet soup claim rights to when it comes to bathrooms and changing rooms?

is this just your common or garden variety of man

is this someone presenting in a way that would make one think they were wanting to present as a woman?

How was this person dressed? Come on give us a clue.

Your posts, fieldofgreycorn are so transparent.

Translation: yes, obviously I understand he was the opposite sex to you, but surely you understand you're expected to pretend he isn't if he was wearing any of the following stereotypes that he associates with 'woman'"

It couldn't be clearer what you are saying if you'd posted, yes, never mind the dick and balls, how much lipstick did he wear?

We don't segregate the sexes on "what type of clothes people wear", we provide privacy to women on the basis of our sex.

Who we are underneath the clothes that you are apparently so interested in.

@XXcstatic don’t be obtuse. The feminist section is full of anti trans bullshit

What you describe as "anti trans bullshit" is generally women warning that self-ID will allow any man to access female spaces, and being told by people like you that we are hysterical and wrong. Then an incident happens that demonstrates that exactly what we have warned about is happening. And your response is not to condemn the man concerned, or to acknowledge the impossibility of keeping spaces single-sex if we allow self-ID, but to blame the woman. That is pure misogyny.

lipstick
We don't segregate the sexes on "what type of clothes people wear", we provide privacy to women on the basis of our sex.

Yes thank you for that highly patronising response Barracker I’m well aware of that.
I was interested to know a bit more about this particular situation.

I find it hard to believe that a male willing to enter a female space blatantly and casually would take well to being told to fuck off. He shouldn't have been there in the first place.
This sums up why you wouldn't say anything. Silence is not acquiescence.

fieldofgreycorn
Why?

Clearly your questions are intended to ascertain clothes - why?
And 'presentation' - why?
You are much more interested in finding out those irrelevant details rather than the rather significant detail that this was a man, a male human being.
Why do you think such superficial details matter?

Most feminists would argue clothing and hairstyles are irrelevant to sex based rights.
Your position clearly isn't that, or else you wouldn't be probing them.

So you say you are 'interested to know a bit more about this particular situation' and the area of your interest has narrowed effectively into what did the man wear, and how did he 'present' (whatever that means) and the bizarre "is this someone presenting in a way that would make one think they were wanting to present ..."
which can only be interpreted as
'can you look at his clothes and his hair and then please second guess his thought process and his feelings about what kind of person he is and what kind of people women are and come up with a conclusion about who he is trying to be so that we can tell you whether you are entitled to have boundaries regarding yourself or whether you must abandon them for his benefit."

The OP knows he's a man.
Whether he's a man in trousers or a man in a kilt or a man in a skirt makes zero difference to the fact he's a man.
He might feasibly be in any of those garments and it would be irrelevant.
The only thing that matters regarding what he's in is that he's in a female changing room.

And shouldn't be.

I will welcome death because I don’t think I can tolerate this sort of nonsense any more. Thank Christ I’m the wrong side of 50.

That man’s female companion might be slapping herself heartily on the back with her inclusive show - to the detriment of her fellow women though. All hail sisterhood.

Not only are men taking our spaces but they are taking our voices by making it nigh on impossible to speak out for fear of retribution.

I keep hearing woke this and woke that.

Someone needs to wake up to this self ID nonsense. And it isn’t me.

@NumbersStation — couldn't have put it better. I'm the wrong side of 50 too

Yes I understand your hard line position of no XY people in women’s spaces ever, regardless of how they present, what they wear, what medication they take or what surgery they may or may not have had.

But that isn’t really the position of the law though is it? Some would say it’s not an approach compatible with dignity and civilised society.

I fully get that putting on a dress doesn’t make you a woman. I just wanted to know what this situation was. OP answered (thank you). That’s my part in this finished now.

But that isn’t really the position of the law though is it?

Probably not, unfortunately.

Some would say it’s not an approach compatible with dignity and civilised society.

And many of us would question where dignity and civilisation are when males are infiltrating female only spaces: spaces that represent the rights that we've fought hard for over the years.

And I'm sticking with my hard line position, thanks. I refuse to sell my fellow women down the river for this shit!

There are butch and gender non conforming transwomen. Expecting TW to conform to femininity and to stereotypes is discriminatory

My friend has been challenged more than once as to why she is in the female toilets, as she looks very masculine (she is married with kids). Last time I was with her and I was more upset than she was. I guess my point is that you sometimes aren’t 100% sure of someone’s gender