Meet the Other Phone. Protection built in.

Meet the Other Phone.
Protection built in.

Buy now

Please or to access all these features

Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Clear and unambiguous language. Change the acronym.

30 replies

JellySlice · 24/01/2020 10:29

Instead of AFAB we should use OFAB - Observed Female At Birth.

Instead of AMAB we should use OMAB - Observed Male At Birth.

OP posts:
NotBadConsidering · 24/01/2020 10:32

100% agree. No one is “assigned” at birth. Even the historical cases of people with ambiguous genitalia, from whom this term has been appropriated, weren’t “assigned” incorrectly at birth, it was a decision made later after assessment and review by surgeons. Can’t believe it’s written into legislation Hmm

Mayomaynot · 24/01/2020 10:33

I'd love to reply frankly to this, but it's one of those situations where if I do then I'd probably get banned, so I won't. All I will say, is that I agree that sex is observed at birth.

Cascade220 · 24/01/2020 10:37

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

BlackeyedSusan · 24/01/2020 10:40

Words have been appropriated to mean other things. It is trickier to post what to mean.

PearsMorgan · 24/01/2020 10:46

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

CuriousaboutSamphire · 24/01/2020 10:51

It’s written into legislation? Which? Hold that thought, I'll try and find the thread...

CuriousaboutSamphire · 24/01/2020 10:54

But here's a starter

www.ons.gov.uk/economy/environmentalaccounts/articles/whatisthedifferencebetweensexandgender/2019-02-21

Part 3L This is where people are born with hormones, chromosomes, anatomy or other characteristics that are neither exclusively male nor female. They are usually assigned a sex (male or female) by their family or doctor at birth as birth certificates require the sex of the child – either male or female. My bold

NotBadConsidering · 24/01/2020 11:01

www.legislation.qld.gov.au/view/pdf/bill.first/bill-2019-069

Page 17

This is proposed legislation I should qualify.

JellySlice · 24/01/2020 11:06

Yes, Spartacus, we do. And they should be sufficient for clear communication. But with the way trans ideology is colonising and appropriating language, sometimes these words are used inaccurately and unclearly. Sometimes it is unclear from the context, especially when there is no accompanying photograph. Where these acronyms are used to clarify information, they should at least be used accurately.

OP posts:
JellySlice · 24/01/2020 11:07

The only babies assigned a sex at birth are those born with differences or disorders of sexual development. Most of these children will have tests very soon after birth to identify their genetic sex. Birth certificates are not issued at birth, but a few weeks later, by which time the results of the tests will be known.

OP posts:
PearsMorgan · 24/01/2020 11:09

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

NotBadConsidering · 24/01/2020 11:14

Curious your link describes the appropriate use of the word assigned (from a language perspective I mean, not necessarily an ethical one). When it’s related to gender identity however it is incorrect. Trans people do not have their sex erroneously “assigned” and even worse, no one, trans or otherwise has a gender assigned.

Barracker · 24/01/2020 11:16

I think the tag "at birth" serves the agenda of only one group, by implying that the situation at birth may be different from the status in life, in death and after an archaeologist digs up your bones.

I was x at birth, but...

These little linguistic tricks are like a foot in the door jamming it open to let in a false idea.

As Samphire's link reveals, almost every newborn is exclusively male or female. Exclusively.
The following sentence about assignment, applies only to those babies with DSDs. And for the majority of those babies, it isn't even a process of 'assignment' either. Most of those babies will simply have their sex confirmed not 'assigned'.

The clearer the language, the better.
Female. Male.

CuriousaboutSamphire · 24/01/2020 11:18

Bugger! I C+Pd the wrong bit! Sorry... Below that

  1. Transgender Transgender or trans is an umbrella term for people whose gender identity is different from the sex assigned at birth.

It becomes normalised because Gender Reassignment assumes initial assignment! And so TRAs can use that as another way to eradicate the idea of sex at birth being what is observed... they use intersex as the basis for this (which is why my mistake above is even more mortifying!).

CuriousaboutSamphire · 24/01/2020 11:20

NotBAd See above. My mistake... But it does confimr that there are only 2 sexes and that gender is different, and the difference is important...

Sex and gender are terms that are often used interchangeably but they are in fact two different concepts, even though for many people their sex and gender are the same. This article will clarify the differences between sex and gender and why these differences are important to understand, especially in research and data collection

PearsMorgan · 24/01/2020 11:20

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

NotBadConsidering · 24/01/2020 11:27

To give some background to this for anyone who isn’t sure.

In the history of the medical treatment of intersex disorders, or disorders of sexual development, there was a time when doctors would look at a baby’s ambiguous genitalia, decide what they could “fashion” from the available tissue, and tell parents that their child would be made into a child of a certain sex. For example, if there really wasn’t enough penile tissue to make what is considered a “normal” penis, parents were told they’d be better of raising their Male child as a girl and the doctors would make the child look like a girl, externally at least from a genitalia perspective. This would usually also involve removing testes.

However, it became increasingly obvious that when these children grew up, things just weren’t right for them, and on discovering what was done, rightly felt aggrieved that these decisions were made purely for cosmetic reasons usually, and to make a child more socially acceptable, when decisions should have waited until the child was old enough to have say.

As a result, people with DSDs have successfully campaigned for decisions not to be rushed, a sex not to assigned before it is necessary and allow some autonomy for the child as they grow, and this is now much more of a normal practice.

However, we now have a situation where people who are trans - whose bodies have no disorder of their sexual development - are claiming that they too were also “assigned” incorrectly (“violently”) and they too should be allowed to change the sex they were “assigned” even though the sex that was recorded for them was entirely accurate and what they’re describing is their incongruent feeling towards that sex.

Understandably, advocates and campaigners for people with DSDs have repeatedly asked not to have their cause appropriated in this way, but they tend to be rudely ignored.

And we now have situation where the completely scientifically inaccurate term “assigned at birth” is being written into legislation.

It’s bonkers.

Barracker · 24/01/2020 11:47

The interesting thing about your c&p error Samphire is that it reveals the ONS contradicting itself.

Are most people exclusively male or female at birth? Yes - see the para on intersex
What are those exclusively male or female characteristics? Hormones (questionable), chromosomes, anatomy or 'other characteristics'. Close enough.
Is sex 'assigned'? No - as per their explanation - it's obvious and exclusive in most of us. It's only assigned where it isn't clear and a judgement is made.

ONS are describing how easily sex is confirmed in a newborn, and that for almost everyone it is exclusively one or the other.
Physical characteristics = sex = exclusive (binary)
Fine.

No mention of gender yet though. What is it, when do you get one, what are its characteristics and how do those characteristics match or mismatch the chromosomes etc mentioned earlier? Is it assigned by someone (who?) or do you grow one yourself? Is it a decision or is it a feeling? An act done to you by others, with or without your consent? What is this gender, why does it use the same terminology as chromosomes, anatomy and hormones?

The ONS are struggling to unite the reality of sex, which they've explained reasonably well, with the myth of 'gender identity' which might as well be favourite ice-cream flavour insofar as they haven't explained what it is at all.

CuriousaboutSamphire · 24/01/2020 13:10

Reading that back that's perfectly true Barracker

I was blinded by the promise of clarity... Smile

This article will clarify the differences between sex and gender and why these differences are important to understand, especially in research and data collection

Smoke... mirrors... clarity???

GirlDownUnder · 24/01/2020 13:26

Because I now Babel fish everything re the transology this is now:

AFAB - A Female At Birth.

AMAB - A Male At Birth.

And I get less cross and can mentally move on.

I get that it doesn't fix the fundamental error, but I guess when I'm IRL I'm fighting a different fight.

Mockers2020Vision · 24/01/2020 14:53

Given that Different Sexual Development was originally Disordered Sexual Development, rather like DVD was originally Digital Versatile Disc and became Digital Video Disc, I think GirlDownUnder has it covered.

unwashedanddazed · 24/01/2020 15:02

That reminds me - Bowlofbabelfish also a much missed sensible and clear voice on these boards. R0 is back, so we can hope Smile

TheBewildernessisWeetabix · 25/01/2020 03:41

I am hoping for her return.

The term had been in common use among diagnosed intersex persons. It was appropriated and redefined.

JellySlice · 25/01/2020 07:22

The term had been in common use among diagnosed intersex persons. It was appropriated and redefined.

I did not know this. All the more reason for us not to use it in reference to trans-identifying people.

OP posts:
BoneyBackJefferson · 26/01/2020 12:18

@JellySlice

why doe we need anything other than
FAB
and
MAB?

Please create an account

To comment on this thread you need to create a Mumsnet account.

This thread is closed and is no longer accepting replies. Click here to start a new thread.