Douglas Murray on denunciations and Lawrence Fox

[BovaryX]

Douglas Murray takes aim at the cancel culture and denunciation tactics at the heart of # no debate. Those who try to control and police what people think and say have dominated public discourse to its detriment. Many are aware of the existential threat to freedom of speech this faction represents.

Nothing that Fox said on Question Time was at all controversial. He suggested that the Labour party leader might be selected on merit and he suggested that Britain is not a racist country. Both these sentiments are held by the majority of the public. Yet so dominant have the minority-opinion pushers become that many people are persuaded that it would not just be career-damaging but socially fatal to say anything to the contrary. Even when that thing is the truth

Either political discussion becomes less toxic regarding a lot of issues (I’m not just talking about race) or the electorate will continue to disappoint the social justice movement.

Precisely. And as andyoldlabour and floisme eloquently highlight, this penchant for subjecting people to vitriolic abuse for expressing political opinions? This is authoritarian bigotry in action. There is a vocal faction of the left wing who use spurious accusations of bigotry to demonize anyone who doesn't submit to the new orthodoxy. They chant #no debate because they can't debate

White privilege' and 'bigot' have lost their meaning through reflexive over-use.

Absolutely. Other words like transphobic, nazi, fascist also go into the meaningless through overuse bin.

To be fair, as pointed out to me, words like misogynist and homophobic are getting a fair outing too. Rightly so in my view, but never the less are having a similar affect on the other team. All a bit self defeating in the end.

I am trying myself to express myself without using these over-exposed, blank numb words. It's not easy. It's all quite depressing.

To be fair, as pointed out to me, words like misogynist and homophobic are getting a fair outing too. Rightly so in my view, but never the less are having a similar affect on the other team. All a bit self defeating in the end

There's a good line in 'The Great Beauty' ( Paolo Sorrentino) where the friends are all sitting on the terrace ruing their lost opportunities, and Jep criticises Stefania for her pompousness.....she responds:

S: " You're a misogynist"

J: " No, Stefania, I'm a misanthropist; it's not all about you".

That's the problem with inter-sectionality. All personal criticism, or views you don't like, can be ascribed to your own particular place in the hierarchy of oppression, and then dismissed.

this has been such an interesting thread. not just for the great posts, but to see in action those who believe in censorship and those who don't

in a post up thread someone has told the OP to go fuck herself. that post still stands because those who believe in free speech have not reported it. by contrast, a number of posts by those advocating free speech have been deleted

interesting take from Janice Turner on this by the way

www.thetimes.co.uk/article/laurence-fox-was-a-lamb-to-the-culture-war-slaughter-w3h2mfcpt

Just not true! The problem arises when anything and everything is put down to 'white privilege' and when 'white privilege' is used to quash dissent and debate. " White privilege' and 'bigot' have lost their meaning through reflexive over-use.

I think it's also valid to ask if the idea of white privilege is really the best or most accurate way to describe the phenomena it is attempting to. It's a term that is trying to describe a particular material reality, and I think clearly there is some sense of what it is trying to get across. But I am not sure that it doesn't bae in some incorrect assumptions about what is really going on in these social relations.

And for whoever asked about whether people feel the same about male privilege, , I feel the same way about the idea of patriarchy though I'm much more sure that it tends to really distort discussion than I am with the idea of white privilege.

A bit OT - is the Times worth subscribing to? I have a limited budget but I am considering it.

^this has been such an interesting thread. not just for the great posts, but to see in action those who believe in censorship and those who don't
in a post up thread someone has told the OP to go fuck herself. that post still stands because those who believe in free speech have not reported it. by contrast, a number of posts by those advocating free speech have been deleted^

Bernard

Yes! Isn't that interesting....

I'd say "yes" Goosefoot and if you move quickly right now the cost to see how you find it is very cheap:

www.thetimes.co.uk/subscribe/digital/

But make sure that well in advance of the end of the offer period you phone them to cancel.

Thanks, nauticant, I'll may give it a try then.

If you do, just bear in mind this:

www.thetimes.co.uk/subscribe/faqs/

and the section How can I cancel my subscription?

Yes, I read that bit - I 'll make sure I cancel, if that's what I decide, well in advance.

Share token for the Janice Turner article about Laurence Fox if anyone needs one:

Laurence Fox was a lamb to the culture war slaughter
Question Time producers knowingly and recklessly turned the actor into a hate figure after his attack on the woke

www.thetimes.co.uk/article/laurence-fox-was-a-lamb-to-the-culture-war-slaughter-w3h2mfcpt?shareToken=2f2c3715802a1c53de157c34d5bf76f5

Douglas Murray says at the end of his book that he advises young people to put as much effort into kindness to others as some of them do for fighting for other people rights.
In the English speaking west we seem to be in a permanent giant bun fight.

Douglas Murray says at the end of his book that he advises young people to put as much effort into kindness to others as some of them do for fighting for other people rights. In the English speaking west we seem to be in a permanent giant bun fight

Dare I say it again, but the rigidity of inter-sectionalist politics is heavily invested in having bun fights. You belong to this or to that oppressed class, or else you are a member of the oppressor group. No nuance. Just shut up and make way.

Douglas Murray talks a lot of sense. I am not saying I agree with every word he says, but much of it, yes. Very intelligent man who has a lot to add to debate, in my opinion. Not least, well, we should be able to debate without screaming others down.

Not least, well, we should be able to debate without screaming others down

That there is now such a thing as 'No debate' or 'Without question', or that it is considered righteous to ban speakers, or no platform certain people - means that this cannot happen, though. What it also means is that proponents of certain positions do not have the ability to debate - relying instead on assumptions of superiority or moral righteousness, and mantras.

If we denounce people like Fox, what are we going to do when confronted with the real racists? The sort who do want to put people in concentration camps?

Like many so-called feminists nowadays, you will simply find a way to explain that they're not 'real racists', and excuse them as you excuse the disgusting racist, sexist L Fox as 'not that bad'. No doubt using extreme examples and emotive language such as 'concentration camps' to muddy the waters.

Womens rights are being eroded, racism is blatantly on the rise (as an aside black women are women too so both racism & sexism to the fore) and so many women are up for this that I want to laugh when they purport to be supporters of womens' rights.

Racism and sexism is cool - according to which man is saying it🙄

Selective feminism is nonsensical. Can't take it seriously.

Women's rights are being eroded ?? Yes, in the trans legislation that is being introduced, but compared to when I was young in the 60s/ 70s women's rights are on a new level altogether in the workplace , in education, childcare.
This is one of DMurrays points - yes there is homophobic attitudes, sexism, racism, misogyny, much of it subtle so hard to call out. But it's the best it's been in uk society (though the internet makes it seem worse), we should stop berating everyone. It's only 80 years since ?12 million Jews were exterminated. We are not all going to turn into compassionate luvvies any time soon but we should appreciate that we've come a long way.

Womens rights are being eroded, racism is blatantly on the rise (as an aside black women are women too so both racism & sexism to the fore) and so many women are up for this that I want to laugh when they purport to be supporters of womens' rights

I'm a little confused at what, or who, is the target of your post?

The "black women are women, in the same way as trans women are women" trope comes direct from the intersectionality politics of the transgender movement. And, of course it is a ridiculously racist thing to say. The irony.

That's what I mean by saying that proponents of intersectionality no longer even know what actual prejudice looks like; what actual racism or sexism looks like......because they are so reflexive in their responses - and unable to construct a rational argument, or counter one.

Selective feminism is nonsensical. Can't take it seriously

Can you explain what you mean by 'selective feminism'?

Racism and sexism is cool - according to which man is saying it

You cannot legislate for people's own views or feelings, though.......There will always be personal disagreement and differing views and interpretations of things. That's just life.

The significant marker of rights and how far we've come is surely the reality of laws which confer those rights on all citizens, and protect them?

Problems will arise, inevitably, when one set of rights imposes and impinges on the rights and spaces of another group.

No, I don't think now IS the best it's been in the UK in terms of sexism and racism. At all. The internet doesn't just make it seem worse, I believe it actually makes it worse. When a woman cannot be in a public role without trolls threatening her with horrific violence and making ugly comments about her body, that gives a green light to people with those dormant feelings, it gives permission. Lets face it, the backlash against every step forward women have taken has well and truly begun, and we hadn't even got to the finish line.
It also seems it's quite OK now to shout down anyone trying to say that, yes, black and brown people experience prejudice still, by saying "free speech!" or by complaining that as a white person you are expected to STFU and take full personal responsibility for slavery or some such rubbish.
I am always astonished at race discussions on MN, in that it's clear that so many white people cannot even discuss racism without taking it as a personal attack. I thought this board was all about looking at systems, at structural inequality (I learned about it on here, so..) Sure on Twitter (why would you even?) or in your university there might be a hierarchy of most oppressed, but in real life, in most people's real lives, the boss is mostly a fifty something white guy, and NOBODY is telling him to STFU, so you're quite safe really, aren't you andy?
I am not a massive fan of identity politics. I don't identify as anything, I just am, and I don't want to be defined, nor do I think anyone should be defined, by characteristics they can't help BUT as many have said on here, being the standard white male does put you a little ahead on the starting blocks for most things in life, or at least it prevents people making daft assumptions about you. That's all white male privilege is. It's not bowing to an authoritarian regime to acknowledge that.

No, I don't think now IS the best it's been in the UK in terms of sexism and racism.

The British Social Attitudes and Values surveys have been going back decades and they consistently show that Britain is becoming a more tolerant, less racist, less homophobic and less sexist society. This is across all social classes and across educational levels.There are ‘pockets’ of intolerance - particularly amongst certain religious identities - but the trends are there. In addition, multiple opinion polls show that Britain is less adverse to immigration than nearly all other counties in Europe.

None of this is to say that racism, sexism and homophobia don’t exist. However, the percentage of respondents who would answer positively to questions such as ‘homosexuality is morally wrong’ has decreased consistently over the decades.

I can’t link directly to the data, as I have it on audiobook and it would take ages to trawl through it all. The Road to Somehwere by David Goodhart gives a very good summary of the changes in British attitudes over time.

The people trying to shout down are those who have worked themselves into a frenzy of outrage over an actor's comments on QT. Meanwhile, they have zip all to say about an Oxford historian requiring bodyguards because activists don't like her research conclusions. They have very little to say about the crime non crime category which Harry Miller triggered by a limerick. The identity politics fundamentalists do not address ideas or arguments, they simply demonize anyone who doesn't subscribe to their Manichean ideology. It is not only tedious, it is inimical to public debate and freedom of speech