Douglas Murray on denunciations and Lawrence Fox

[BovaryX]

Douglas Murray takes aim at the cancel culture and denunciation tactics at the heart of # no debate. Those who try to control and police what people think and say have dominated public discourse to its detriment. Many are aware of the existential threat to freedom of speech this faction represents.

Nothing that Fox said on Question Time was at all controversial. He suggested that the Labour party leader might be selected on merit and he suggested that Britain is not a racist country. Both these sentiments are held by the majority of the public. Yet so dominant have the minority-opinion pushers become that many people are persuaded that it would not just be career-damaging but socially fatal to say anything to the contrary. Even when that thing is the truth

I regularly note the huge difference between London and countryside. Get on a tube and expect a mix, get on a train and it may well be all white. DD noted the same when she went to a predominantly white middle class University.

But it's fine. DDs school friends were racially mixed, Uni friends are different, predominantly northern, many from state schools and some of her closest friends are first generation University. They are a new diversity for her, whilst they have become adept at spotting Londoner differences. (Regular appointments with a dental hygienist is one - who knew.) I think it is great. It is not about her being able to boast of a friendship group of varying hues. It is about her being able to take people as she finds them regardless of colour and background.

Change takes time. Go back a couple of decades and it was very rare to see black or Asian people skiing. A colleague explained. Black people were far too sensible to spend money going somewhere cold when they could have a holiday in the sun. Things are changing, and it is much more common to see mixed families and groups of young people. Ditto the Tooting Lido. Equally I saw colleagues of Nigerian origin start to migrate to market towns in search of cheaper housing.

The pace of diversity will pick up as we have more mixed race families and more secondary migration. And that is ignoring the diversity there already is, including perhaps South Asian Doctors and Chinese restaurant owners, and well as non-visible ethnics including East European farm workers, or the descendants of WW2 refugees. (Lots of Polish names in Cornwall, or the Armenian community in Bournemouth.)

The assumption that racism is the opposite of diversity is flawed.

My family is probably 5 generations London. My dad experienced the post war, no blacks, no Irish, no dogs prejudice. My son risks being accused of white privilege. Integration takes time.

Need my dad also experienced the no dogs etc

But what you are describing...why does any of it matter? Genuine question. Or have I misinterpreted you?

I do find these discussions really odd in fairness.

Whatever happened to this attitude ?
"I disagree with what you say but will defend to the death your right to say it"

I am concerned that someone stating their opinion can be on the receiving end of death threats, attempts at preventing them from getting work and hateful social media messages.

Because this is why people see wrong and stay silent-like Rochdale.

Scary stuff

I live in a rural area which isn't very mixed. I worked across the whole county which had very multicultural areas and towns which were predominantly white. My policy as children's librarian was to ensure all libraries had a diverse range of stock. Occasionally I'd get complaints 'we don't have any black people here.'
I would visit village schools with my varied collection of books to promote and very often found there were minority children there.
What bothers me about the Lozza thing is firstly there is prejudice, misconceptions among people who have little day to day contact with black people, secondly if what they see on tv is black academics hurling accusations of 'white privilege' it will only entrench views.
Why do we rarely see several black academics disagreeing about race and identity, because they do.

Autumn Rose, I may not sure what I am trying to say.

I am sick of accusations of racism. Fine if justified and evidenced, but not when it is everyone who voted Brexit or anyone who had their doubts about M&H.

I would like to see colour blindness, recruitment on merit, and acceptance regardless of background.

I accept that there needs to be care taken to ensure that prejudice does not creep in and that allowance is made for disadvantage.

However it feels as if 'diversity' has gone beyond that and may actually be damaging, emphasising one group over another (eg LGBTQ+ over disability) or by focusing on skin colour over relative advantage.

Inarticulate I know. However I, like many, felt deeply bruised by the Brexit debate and the awful, nasty accusations that came from ex-friends and neighbours. Fox may not be the best spokesperson, but he is trying to articulate something that people feel. My sense is that there are too many topics where debate is not allowed, and this in itself is harmful. He may not be right, and people are welcome to disagree. But let's have more than simply cry 'racist'.

need oh me too. I thought we’d met before 😀

New category? MN BFF

need aww.

We can sing this together

Needmoresleep, my thoughts entirely, and I think you expressed it very well.

I don't believe I am racist or xenophobic, most certainly not consciously anyway, and I try hard to be sensitive to the fact that other people's life experiences are different than mine simply because of outward appearances and the views of others.

Live and let live would be my personal philosophy and I look forward to the day when what we say and what we do is more important than what we are. But it won't happen as long as there are so many in the public spotlight who think the only way forward is to shut down intelligent discussion and scream insults. It just entrenches division and - worse than that, in my opinion - it forces the moderate middle to pick sides. Something they would prefer not to do, being largely of the "live and let live" persuasion too.

Morning, Autumn, I'd never heard of Dominic Frisby before you found this. You have enriched my life. Again.

I think there is a confusion sometimes by what is meant by "white privilege.
I had a conversation with a white male friend who is in a very well paid professional job. He said basically the same as what Mockers said; Chinese students do the best of all, white working class boys are at the bottom of the pile etc.
The thing is, white privilege, like male privileged doesnt mean that all white people are privileged, just like not all male people are privileged.
But I explained to my friend that, as a white man, he started his career in an easier mode than if he had been a black woman, NOT necessarily in that he was given special privileges, or that a black woman would be treated badly, but in that being a white middle class male in that environment is sort of like being "neutral". They wouldn't have made particular assumptions about him (as most of his office was white men) in the way they might had he been a Muslim woman or a Chinese guy. He didn't have to get past any barriers to begin with.
Now, I don't think the UK is more racist than anywhere, and I'm not a fan of Meghan Markle (OR our press for that matter) but I am irritated by white men who say that some kind of pre-conceptions about people who don't start life in "neutral" mode don't exist because some brown and black people do very well for themselves in life. Just like I'm not impressed by men who say sexism doesn't exist because we have had a female prime minister, or because some men are homeless.

^^Whatever happened to this attitude ?
"I disagree with what you say but will defend to the death your right to say it" I am concerned that someone stating their opinion can be on the receiving end of death threats, attempts at preventing them from getting work and hateful social media messages^.

mumsie

I absolutely agree. There is a totalitarian zealotry which stalks public discourse. Its proponents use spurious accusations of bigotry to demonize anyone who questions the new orthodoxy. It's quite incredible that there is more outrage about the comments of Lawrence Fox than the fact an Oxford university professor requires bodyguards because of her research conclusions. The Guardian hasn't bothered to report the latter, but will denounce the former with relentless enthusiasm for months.

Needmore Autumn Singing Lily

What refreshing camaraderie from you!

I openly admit that I’m a bit of a dinosaur when it comes to social media, and haven’t been on Twitter very long. I have noticed a few things recently though:

1. You are considered to be as right-wing as the most right-wing person you have been seen to associate/debate with
2. If you hold socially conservative views about anything then you are automatically assumed to be right-wing
3. If you have a protected characteristic and hold socially conservative views on anything then you are no longer in possession of the protected characteristic and are, in fact, deemed to be deserving of abuse by other people with that protected characteristic who hold the ‘right’ view
4. If you admit to being generally right-of-centre then you are, in fact, alt-right or far-right

This is leading to several things:

1. Accusations that the ‘far right’ is on the increase. Of course they are - we’re all ‘far right’ now unless we hold the ‘correct’ opinions on everything.
2. People with the ‘correct’ opinions refuse to engage at all with anyone with the ‘wrong’ opinions due to fear of guilt by association. Hence we now have the rise in ‘I don’t know anyone who votes tory’.
3. The ‘liberals’ destroy themselves by stepping on any of the ‘incorrect’ landlines. Hence we have the Paul Mason/Rebecca Long Bailey fiasco and the Joe Rogan/Bernie Sanders fiasco.

Meanwhile, the real far right are simply able to hide in plain sight and the social justice movement is distracted from the real injustices in the world by getting completely hysterical about minutiae.

I wish I'd been around more on this thread earlier, Bovary, but...RL.

The "forcing the moderate middle to pick sides" reaction came to me early on, on 9/11. I recall watching it unfold in all its tragedy and horror and realised that as much as anything, it was intended to provoke the whole world to divide and entrench rather than just accept differences, embrace what we have in common, and generally rub along with each other.

It was especially marked because we were abroad at the time - I speak other languages so was able to join in what was being said - and our feelings of horror and trepidation at what this would mean were so clearly shared by everyone, regardless of nationality, ethnicity, culture or anything else.

Laurence Fox said something about U.K. being least racist in Europe - so he was partly comparing the U.K. in which case uk comes out welll as far as racism is concerned. Sorry can't be bothered to find it again, it is on YouTube.
If someone does accept that they have white privileged. What are they supposed to do - should I have given most of my savings to poor African countries and let my own DCs scrimp and scrape to get on the housing ladder - or see them alright?
Should L Fox turn down job offers so they are available to black actors? Even though it will probably go to another white actor.
There is privilege but quite what you do about I'm not sure.

The right wing tend to be far more abusive and engage in far worse censorship and troll tactics than the left wing

Really? Provide some concrete evidence Meanwhile, is it the 'right wing' threat which requires an Oxford professor to need bodyguards? Is it the 'right wing' which promote a chilling environment on campuses? Is the #no debate, cancel culture coming from the 'right wing?' Nope. It is the left wing identity politics obsessives They are the threat to freedom of speech. They are the ones who denounce and intimidate and trade in guilt by association fallacies to smear any dissenters. The intolerant, bigoted left wing. That's why Labour were obliterated in the election

Also, Lawrence Fox is a C-list actor and failed musician

Straight to ad hominems Another recurrent theme.

Needmoresleep, BovaryX, TheRealMcKenna,

Excellent posts, I find this forum illuminating and fascinating.

Thank you andyoldlabour!

After the ongoing Stephen Lawrence case I thought that any policeperson or social worker could be at risk of losing their job if accused of racism.
It's unfair imv to expect people to 'be reasonable' or 'do the right thing' if they will get sacked for what is seen as a racist decision whilst the gov ministers, who promise to get rid of racism - in the police or whatever, in response to headlines in the media and demands for change in parliament are never held to account for the results of their sweeping legislations.
So we get Rotherham and Manchester.

Any idiot who thinks we live in a meritocracy deserves to be ignored.

“ has experienced a massive surge in fame and career purely for expressing these views.”

Um, not really. His career was fine. The death threats, not so much.

Also, I’m not aware of him arguing he’s a victim but if he said it after death threats, I’d be inclined to agree.

I’d have lost my last two jobs if they knew my political views and I think that’s appalling. Then again, maybe I was the only brown woman they interviewed and that’s why I got the jobs. Who knows?

“ Any idiot who thinks we live in a meritocracy deserves to be ignored”

I have read the whole thread but surely no one thinks that!