Active discussions

Meet the Other Phone. A phone that grows with your child.

Meet the Other Phone.
A phone that grows with your child.

Buy now

Please or to access all these features

Talk
Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Feminism: chat

Original poster

Transwoman awarded £9k for sex discrimination

123 replies

jadefinch · 16/01/2020 14:17

A transwoman has been awarded £9k after claiming they failed to get a job at Debenhams because they're trans (and used sex discrimination legislation!).

The only evidence they had of discrimination was an 'anonymous email'.

Their story doesn't make much sense - who asks to see a birth certificate at an interview? Other comments they've given to the media about people in a canteen gawping seem to contradict their claim that there was no transphobia during the interview, and Debenhams paid on the basis that they accept 'no liability'.

There's also claims on Facebook that this person was recently caught on CCTV stealing.

www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-7894413/Transgender-woman-Ava-Moore-Newry-Northern-Ireland-gets-9-000-settlement-Debenhams.html

OP posts:
LukewarmCustard · 16/01/2020 20:16

isabellerossignol You asked if the research I mentioned covered Northern Ireland. One piece of research only covered England, Scotland and Wales, but I can't remember about the other studies. It is possible that the situation in Northern Ireland is different.

isabellerossignol · 16/01/2020 20:26

LukewarmCustard

I'm not naive enough to think that discrimination doesn't occur in recruitment here, but I'd be really surprised if big companies employed bad practices. I can't remember an example off the top of my head so I went back through a few years worth of press releases from the Equality Commission and couldn't find any there either.

Even as a 14 year old trying to apply for Saturday jobs, I had to fill in long application forms, proving how I met criteria (which was almost impossible). And if you don't meet the criteria, no interview. I've known loads of people who have worked for ages in a temporary job and then had to apply for their own job because its now being made permanent. The manager knows they can do the job, HR know they can so the job, but because they've done a poor application form they don't even get an interview. Applying for jobs here is so formal, even for entry level jobs. My current job had an application form that was 24 pages long, and that's for a part time job which is not a high flying or even a management position.

snowblight · 16/01/2020 20:27

This, of course, is precisely the type of thread that exposes the type of negativity towards trans people on Mumsnet that goes beyond any claims about legitimate concerns. It's all about picking apart something to do with a trans person, looking for some supposed hidden negative, purely because they're trans... no other reason.

isabellerossignol · 16/01/2020 20:35

So a transwoman believes they are entitled to special treatment and we shouldn't talk about that?

TheTigersBride · 16/01/2020 20:45

So a transwoman believes they are entitled to special treatment and we shouldn't talk about that?

Is she asking for special treatment? I thought she was asking to be treated as any other job applicant. We don't know the reason she didn't get the job. She has assumed it was her trans status. If that is correct - she was discrimination against. Her raising the issue isn't asking for special treatment.

snowblight · 16/01/2020 20:48

Her raising the issue isn't asking for special treatment

Exactly. God forbid a trans person should want the same protections that others enjoy.

mement0mori · 16/01/2020 20:50

So a transwoman believes they are entitled to special treatment and we shouldn't talk about that?

Why is it special treatment to expect not to be discriminated against? Isn’t that what we all expect?

isabellerossignol · 16/01/2020 20:51

This person said in their interview that they knew they had the job, and that they should have had the job.

They have no idea how the other candidates performed, or if they were more experienced. If that's not asking for special treatment I don't know what is.

TheTigersBride · 16/01/2020 20:53

I've seen plenty of posts from women saying the same- are they asking for special treatment?

isabellerossignol · 16/01/2020 20:53

The interview with the BBC I mean.

BusyProcrastinator · 16/01/2020 20:54

Sounds like they were discriminated against and the anonymous email was probably the reason why the Equality Commission provided legal advice, seeing it as a legitimate case.

(I don’t believe TWAW but I do think people shouldn’t be discriminated against. I see no legit reason why a trans person shouldn’t work in Debenhams).

RedToothBrush · 16/01/2020 20:57

Debenhams paid £9000 to make this person go away rather than pay the legal fees and face potential difficult headlines for a court case.

Which they might later regret if they have a bunch of other chancers try this on too.

isabellerossignol · 16/01/2020 20:58

I'd say that anyone who insists they should have a job is asking for special treatment, yes. If you fill in the form, get called to interview, and the interview is conducted correctly and then you aren't successful, you have to face the fact that someone else was the better candidate.

This isn't comparable to eg a woman being asked if she has children. This is someone who says they did a good interview therefore they should be appointed.

perfectstorm · 16/01/2020 21:01

I agree with @LukewarmCustard. If she was discriminated against for being trans, in a role that in no way requires a single sex candidate, then she deserves to be compensated.

LukewarmCustard · 16/01/2020 21:07

isabellerossignol The reason why you can't find press releases on successful discrimination claims about recruitment is that people rarely pursue them. It is very, very difficult to get evidence to support your claim. There is research in this area but I don't have it to hand.

LukewarmCustard · 16/01/2020 21:12

snowblight I'm guessing that you didn't read the thread before throwing the accusations around. You might want to go back and read this bit:

If Debenham's rejected the transwoman's employment application because the transwoman was trans, then they have engaged in discrimination in employment and should agree a settlement. I think this is a sensible use of discrimination law, as the discrimination stopped someone getting a job which they may otherwise have been appointed to. This is, I think, what the 'gender reassignment' provisions of the Equality Act were intended to protect against.

mement0mori · 16/01/2020 21:12

and the interview is conducted correctly

But we don’t know that the interview was conducted correctly. There may be some evidence that it wasn’t.

isabellerossignol · 16/01/2020 21:15

But we don’t know that the interview was conducted correctly. There may be some evidence that it wasn’t.

I was assuming Ava would have mentioned it if there was something in the interview process that led them to their conclusion.

isabellerossignol · 16/01/2020 21:19

It is very, very difficult to get evidence to support your claim.

I would have thought it would be one of the easiest things to prove. The recruiters will have had to keep records of how they scored the candidates at interview. If the person who got the highest score wasn't the one that was offered the job, there's your proof.

NeedAnExpert · 16/01/2020 21:23

£9k is far less than the legal costs of defending an ET, unfortunately. We estimate the costs of hearing at £15k per week, more if very senior staff are required to give evidence. Settlements are often economic rather than anything to do with right or wrong.

TheTigersBride · 16/01/2020 21:24

This isn't comparable to eg a woman being asked if she has children. This is someone who says they did a good interview therefore theyshouldbe appointed

I never mentioned asking about children. I've seen posts on here from women saying they were the best candidate and should have got the job.

isabellerossignol · 16/01/2020 21:26

I never mentioned asking about children. I've seen posts on here from women saying they were the best candidate and should have got the job.

And I answered that, I said that I believe that anyone who thinks they should definitely have got a job, based only on their own opinion of how well they have done and with no knowledge of how the other candidates have done, is expecting special treatment.

BiologyIsReal · 16/01/2020 21:27

I am not surprised Debenham's settled even if there were other reasons for not employing Ava.

Why make themselves a potential target for the trans activists?

And how would they prove they had not discriminated against Ava because Ava is trans i .e. how would they prove a negative?

They are on a hiding to nothing.

(None of which means I am defending the company who may well have discriminated against Ava. I'm just saying they were in a no win situation).

VanGoghsDog · 16/01/2020 21:46

If Debenham's rejected the transwoman's employment application because the transwoman was trans, then they have engaged in discrimination in employment and should agree a settlement. I think this is a sensible use of discrimination law

But we will never know if they did because it was never tested in court, no evidence has been presented and actually £9k sounds like a costs avoidance settlement to me rather than a "we're going to lose" settlement.

I expect Debenhams use barristers so that's the cost of about three days work, it would likely be a minimum of a two day hearing plus other prep and maybe a pre hearing.

Gizmo79 · 16/01/2020 21:58

This is basically going to force employers to hire trans people over non trans.
What a way to become more popular hey? It is all too easy to claim bias and this is just going to cause more problems.
I have had great interviews and not got the job, doesn’t mean I have been discriminated against! Let’s face it, all women can claim that as it still occurs that women are feared for pregnancy issues. Especially with smaller companies, but also with larger ones. Think I will be waiting a long time for a trans man to make the same allegation me thinks.