Can anyone explain to me (related to TRA)...

[ThePeckOfPickledPeppersPeterPi]

... how the TRA movement can sometimes risk being homophobic?

I'm beginning to see clearly some issues with erosion of women's rights. I also saw a suggestion somewhere that some aspects of the movement could potentially negatively impact gay men or women, but not a full argument. Can anyone explain this further? Thank you!

(PS I blame Glinner. I was blissfully unaware of most of these issues till recently).

From some FB friends I have connected to the boxer ceiling I've seen anecdotal evidence of women who are either non binary or transmen who appear to have such an ego that gay men will want to have sex with them.

It's quite disturbing to read some of their accounts and I've seen similar of transwomen who take it very personally when heterosexual men don't want to date them. It can descend into some quite nasty stuff.

Some of the stuff around kids is akin to conversion therapy, I've seen evidence of this coming from America where the parents are very strict and/or religious.

Also some of the online backlash around the launch of the LGB Alliance reads like an abusive relationship where the abused partner cannot leave. The tactics used are quite obvious in some cases. I've been accused of being homophobic for criticism Stonewall (it's only the trans ideology and Stonewall 'law' I object to).

People should be able to identify as what best fits them (which also means stop saying lesbians dating trans women are bi, seriously, it’s SO shitty)

They are though. I get that the truth sometimes hurts and that's too bad, but a lesbian is a female person attracted only to her own sex. This definition matters to lesbian women (as the corresponding one matters to most gay men). It is the basis of legal protection for people in same sex relationships.

These women are in a relationship with a male person. Therefore they are bisexual. They can do what they like, identity as whatever they like, but they haven't changed the definition of lesbian, just like MTF trans people haven't changed most people's definition of "woman".

Or do you think two bepenised bearded males in a same sex relationship are actually a lesbian couple too, if they both utter the magic words "I am a woman"?

Thanks for showing the OP further how being a lesbian has been appropriated and erased by males and bisexual women.

A thread I started to collect evidence of the "Cotton Ceiling"

"Cotton Ceiling" evidence thread www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3294339-cotton-ceiling-evidence-thread

Thanks for showing the OP further how being a lesbian has been appropriated and erased by males and bisexual women.

I should clarify, some of these women in relationships with MTF trans people are straight, not bisexual. So straight women are more than capable of appropriation and erasure in exactly the same way.

Interesting question, Spartacus.

Have a look at the situation in Iran OP.

And ask yourself why a violently homophobic islamic theocracy has such high rates of male to female transitions.

I've heard it called 'transing away the gay'.

To look at how some gay men have reacted there's an interesting data lounge thread about the Juno Dawson quote.
Also there was a gay identifying transman who demanded access to a gay sauna in London and data lounge made mincemeat of that idea.

When I hear gay trans man, if I go by the fact that words have meanings, I think this is a lesbian. However who knows?

There's also discussion that often women who transition to be what they call "gay men" have been influenced by some type of Japanese cartoon porn, and then experience ROGD.

I think it's important to remember that being critical of the trans movement and its ideology is not the same as not accepting trans people - although a lot of TRAs like to suggest it is and that by pointing out the obvious homophobia we are "denying their existence". This is why the "no debate" stance is so damaging.

Also not all trans people sign up to this type of thinking. The trans women I have met in real life do not. It seems to be more the keyboard warriors on twitter!

@Ereshkigal I accept that that’s your belief of it but just because you don’t accept that TWAW and TMAM it doesn’t mean that other people agree with you. I think it’s shitty when people immediately comment that someone isn’t gay/straight when dating a trans person. Why not just keep that thought in your head, I’m not policing it, why comment and tell people they’re not really the identity they describe themselves as. That’s not kind behaviour, it’s not affecting you. You’re not the one in the relationship. I don’t understand this vitriolic way of thinking.

I dont have all the links but it is worth keeping an eye of the LGB Alliance which has recently formed to fight for the right of same sex attraction being just that, because Stonewall and other groups are now so indoctrinated by the trans narrative that even thought they say the represent lesbians and gay men they side with the arguement that self identity and gender are the same as sex (biological) and sex (attraction). lgballiance.org.uk/ Also on twitter twitter.com/alliancelgb?lang=en

In fact the extent to which particularly lesbians have been under attack for not complying with the trans queer agenda that some lesbians started a group (campaign?) called Get the L Out because of what is now known as lesbian erasure. www.gettheloutuk.com/ As a result lesbians in other countries have set up similar groups.

There is also this very moving post from last summer that I think not only struck a chord with many lesbians but made other women aware of the type of attack and undermining lesbians are facing today.

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3621239-Being-a-homosexual-female-in-a-community-of-queer-people-transbians-and-penis-inclusionary-lesbians

Also google Detrainsitioners Advocacy Network.

Once you notice transmen who grew up in religious households/communities (where being a lesbian is sinful) you’ll see it all the time...

Can you codify a belief into law? Will you mandate that people can abracadabra themselves from one sex to the other & must be treated accordingly by all?
That children who fail to conform to sex role stereotypes are born in the wrong body and need to be put on drugs and have surgery to affirm their authentic self?
How will you punish the non believers?

I have though from the beginning that transitioning away the Gays and Lesbians and driving a tank through women's rights was the reason that transgender ideology was so promptly embraced by Western governments, In the name of equality, of course.

In fact the extent to which particularly lesbians have been under attack for not complying with the trans queer agenda that some lesbians started a group (campaign?) called Get the L Out

Julia Long's latest fringe group? The one that only got less than 40 people to a national march? Doesn't exactly speak of mass support. Keep trying to convince yourselves that most lesbians agree with you though. In the real world the overwhelming majority of lesbians and trans people get along just fine. If you actually got out from behind your keyboards rather than swallowing every bit of propaganda that's thrown your way you might realise it yourselves.

I think Get The L Out were also the ones who did that big survey of lesbians... the one where they spoke to 60 people.

The very same type of children who were targeted by the Christian Right in America for conversion therapy - boys who don't act in traditionally masculine-presenting ways are now the same kids transitioned by parents who find it more palatable transitioning them than accepting them being gay. Homophobia is behind this, same kids different form of abuse.

terf When I hear gay trans man, if I go by the fact that words have meanings, I think this is a lesbian. However who knows?

I thought it was a straight female. My reasoning when I do word conversions while reading, allowing for gender / sex conflagration, and agreeing that TMAM.

Gay = male sex attracted to the male sex, or gender in this case
Trans man = a female at birth, but identifies as man and male

In this case a (trans) man attracted to males = gay trans man

So ‘gay male’ doesn’t really exist anymore to answer the OP.

But you’ll probably need to ask Humpty what words mean tomorrow. The evolution that allowed humans to communicate ideas is dead or at least dying.

ACat Language matters, unless you don’t think the law matters. What protects lesbian females or gay males or trans people if these terms have no definable or measurable meaning to apply a law to?
Law has to be unambiguous and behave a little like Douglas McGregors’ red-hot stove theory - immediate, with warning, consistent, and impersonal.

I think Get The L Out were also the ones who did that big survey of lesbians... the one where they spoke to 60 people.

What like the PACE study the results of which are constantly quoted by transactivists as indicating that there is high suicide risk in "trans" children, which although a survey of 2000 odd people was based on a sample of 27 trans people?

Why not just keep that thought in your head

Why don't you keep your own thoughts in your head? Why doesn't anyone? Clarity is important. So is standing up when you believe something is wrong.

You're the one with the fringe belief, not me. Most people know what a woman is, and a lesbian.

Googling these things is actually quite tricky. The algorithms return results heavily biased away from finding out information about abuse of women by trans women, for instance. The top results very often seem to be Stonewall, and it's all about the (obviously also important, but not what I was then looking up) abuse OF trans people. I don't want to get tinfoil hatty about this, but Google algorithms seem to me to be biased away from GC perspectives and towards TRA. Obviously we can't directly assess this as the available results are also a factor. But Google strongly shapes the info we get on this.

As I think someone referred to above, here's a way to think about this.

If you have two transwomen in a sexual relationship with each other, both of whom have not had any gender reassignment treatment at all so are conventionally male-bodied, is their sexual relationship a lesbian relationship if they both identify as women?

One thing you've got to understand ThePeckOfPickledPeppersPeterPi is that in many cases the abuse of a woman by a transwoman will be recorded by the Police as abuse of a woman by a woman, and will be reported by the media as such. See for example:

www.thetimes.co.uk/article/police-forces-let-rapists-record-their-gender-as-female-d7qtb7953 (sorry there's no access to the full article)

There are plenty of examples of this. The evidence base is being corrupted at a fundamental level.

Google algorithms seem to me to be biased away from GC perspectives and towards TRA.

Yes, it does appear so. It's been noted before, particularly when trying to google how many women are murdered, which returns pages and pages about TW.