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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

See all MNHQ comments on this thread

Things Change:

158 replies

Endymion1 · 12/01/2020 17:13

Most people born with ovaries can give birth when reaching a certain age, but that does not mean that people who are not born with ovaries do not want children, nor does that mean that one must have been born with ovaries to have a desire to take care of children. Having children and having the children survive to have their own children is how genes get passed along. Human babies are particularly helpless for an extended periods-of-time, so evolutionarily it makes sense that both mothers and fathers would have a desire to have children and to take care of them. Many people in our current society may feel that it is obvious that those feelings would naturally and biologically be stronger in mothers than in fathers, but that is not necessarily the case. Further, in our current society mothers do most of the childcare, but it is not certain that necessarily must be the case. Also, currently there is there is a wage gap, between women and men, but again it is not certain that has to be. In fact, this wage gap is narrowing. Prior to the 1960s women have been clearly and overtly discriminated against in terms of jobs and education. Laws were passed in the 1960s to make this discrimination more difficult. After that, not surprisingly, the wage gap decreased. There have also been other changes. Following is a summary of some of these changes in the United States.

Regarding the wage gap, women made 60.7% of what men made in 1960. This actually decreased to 57.6% in 1966, but shortly after the Equal Pay Act of 1963 it started to increase until it reached 81.6% in 2018, see here: www.pay-equity.org/info-time.html. The Women’s Civilian Labor Force Participation Rate increased from 28.6% in 1948 to 57.6% in 2016, while during the same period the Men’s Civilian Labor Force Participation Rate decreased from 71.4% to 53.2%. Thus, these rates narrowed from 42.8% in 1948 to 6.4% in 2016. These figures are for the US, but most likely are similar for the UK. See here: www.dol.gov/wb/stats/NEWSTATS/facts/women_lf.htm#LFPMotherChild.

A chart from the US Labor Department shows the Labor Force Participation Rate for Mothers by age of youngest child from 1975 to 2016. Of greatest interest is the increase of this rate for mothers whose youngest child is under 3. It went from 34.3% in 1974 to 63.1% in 2016. This could be due to women’s desire to be with their young children, instead of being at work for pay, decreasing (possibly due to a shifting of social norms or values). See here: www.dol.gov/wb/stats/NEWSTATS/facts/women_lf.htm#LFPMotherChild.

This chart from Pew Research shows there has been an increase in the percentage of households with a stay at home father from 2.0% between 1976 and 1979 to 3.5% between 2000 and 2009. See here: www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2013/09/17/more-men-on-the-daddy-track/. While that amount is still small the increase was 75%. And then this chart shows that the percentage of households where the mother worked full time and the father worked part-time or not at all increased from 2% in 1970 to 6% in 2015, see here: www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2015/11/04/how-american-parents-balance-work-and-family-life-when-both-work/ft_15-11-04_parenting-ft/. This suggests that feelings among mothers and fathers, regarding childcare is changing with fathers taking on more of the traditional mothering role and mothers taking on more of the traditional fathering role.

Here is a chart that shows that between 1989 and 2016 the percentage of fathers that do not work outside of the home because they are taking care of the home or family increased from 4% to 24% while during the same period the percentage of mothers doing the same decreased from 86% to 78%. While more mothers still stay home for that reason than men do, the percentages are converging, see here: www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2019/06/12/fathers-day-facts/ft_19-06-10_fathersday_1/. And according to this graph between 1965 and 2016 the number of hours per week “Dads” spend on Childcare increased from 2.5 to 8; the number of hours per week “Dads” spend on housework increased from 4 to 10 and the number of hours “Dads” spend on paid work decreased from 46 to 43. During the same time the number of hours “Moms” (Mums) spend per week on Childcare increased from 10 to 14; the number of hours “Moms” spend on Housework decreased from 32 to 18 and the number of hours “Moms” spend on paid work increased from 9 to 25, see here: www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2019/06/12/fathers-day-facts/ft_18-05-01_fathersday_time/. Further, according to a graph in this pew article within married couples 13% of women earned more than the man in 1980; 19% of women earned more than the man in 1990 and 23% of women earned more than the man in 2000. The figure for 2017 is 28% of women earned more than the man in married and cohabiting couples, see here: www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2017/09/20/americans-see-men-as-the-financial-providers-even-as-womens-contributions-grow/. So, the percentage of women earning more than men in married couple has increased, at least between 1980 and 2000 and possibly even into 2017.

This graph from Pew Research shows a sharp increase in the fertility rate between 1950 (the earliest date shown) and the late 1950s, then a sharp drop off between the late 1950s and the 1970s and then a leveling off: www.pewresearch.org/wp-content/uploads/2019/05/FT_19.05.16_FertilityUpdate.png?w=640. This could be due to the introduction of the birth control pill in the 1950s, which gave people more control over how many children they had, suggesting the either people’s desire to have children (possibly due to a shifting of social norms or values) had changed or that it wasn’t as strong as the earlier fertility rates indicated.

Things that change are not fixed so as women’s and men’s roles have changed, they are not fixed. That is biology is not destiny, meaning women and men are not chained to their roles by biology.

Could it be possible, taking into consideration, that more women now graduate from college than men that sometime in the future there could be a “reverse” wage gap with women earning more than men and then men being more likely to stay home and take care of the kids. I’m not predicting this will happen, I’m just urging people to be skeptical about claims that something is natural and biological and therefore unchangeable. Also, my position is that people take on the role that they want. If a woman wants to stay home and be a full time Mum that’s fine and if a man wants to stay home and be a full time Dad that is also fine.

For more information on change see “Women in history and an examination of gender norms:” here: www.mumsnet.com/Talk/feminist_theory/3736953-Women-in-history-and-an-examination-of-gender-norms and kindly comment.

Tom,

OP posts:
StrangeLookingParasite · 18/01/2020 22:33

Jésus wept, who do you think you are.

T0tallyFuckedUpFamily · 18/01/2020 22:34

That is why I am a Feminist becuase of men like that.

You’re not a feminist, Tom, you’re really not. The fact that you call yourself one, shows how little you know about what feminism is. Now run along and find a pub that you can sit in and bore the men with all your ‘knowledge’.

Endymion1 · 18/01/2020 22:35

Strangel I know the US is not the world and that is why I would like to hear from others about other countires. You knew all the statistics I linked to?

Tom

OP posts:
Endymion1 · 18/01/2020 22:38

I am a Feminist. I was nice to someone. Just more insults and rudness.

Tom,

OP posts:
Endymion1 · 18/01/2020 22:40

Aren't people getting tired of being rude?

Tom,

OP posts:
T0tallyFuckedUpFamily · 18/01/2020 22:41

You’re not a feminist, Tom. It’s not possible for you to be a feminist, before you have a penis. Feminism is for women. You.just.don’t.get.it!

Tubbytwo · 18/01/2020 22:41

Don’t go all incel on us dangly bits owner! Not when we were all getting so much wisdom and niceness from you. How can we ever hope to manage without you? 😧

T0tallyFuckedUpFamily · 18/01/2020 22:41

*because you have a penis.

Endymion1 · 18/01/2020 22:42

Just because I am insulted and I am being rude to does not mean I am not a Feminist.

Tom,

OP posts:
Endymion1 · 18/01/2020 22:43

Men can be just as much feminists as women.

Tom,

OP posts:
T0tallyFuckedUpFamily · 18/01/2020 22:44

I’m a giraffe, because I sponsor giraffes. 🦒

LangCleg · 18/01/2020 22:44

It would be disrespectful to call me penis barer

And, one would hope, inaccurate. Autocucumber is your friend, Tom.

Lang,

RedToothBrush · 18/01/2020 22:45

Tom told me that when I said I regarded what that he was being disrespectful, I was wrong cos he was being scientific and clever.

Tom then told me I was rude for explaining why I found he was being disrespectful because I tried to highlight the point by explaining why it was rude and by mirroring his own rudeness by referring to him by his bits.

Tom now tells me he's a feminist. And that I should respect him because he says he's a feminist, and isnt that great? We should all be appreciative of him getting involved and telling us how to do feminism.

Is Tom familiar with Bewilderness's rules?

1. Women are responsible for what men do.
2. Women saying no to men is a hate crime.
3. Women speaking for themselves are exclusionary and selfish.
4. Women’s opinions are violence against men, thus male violence against women is justified.
5. Women and Feminism must be useful to men or they are worthless.
6. Women who go around being female AT men by menstruating and breastfeeding babies deserve punishment.
7. Women should always be grateful to men for everything.
8. Men are whatever men say they are and women are whatever men say they are.
9. Men always know the “real reasons” for everything women do and say.

Endymion1 · 18/01/2020 22:45

Totally I didn't say a was a woman.

Tom,

OP posts:
T0tallyFuckedUpFamily · 18/01/2020 22:45

Lang 🤣

Creepster · 18/01/2020 22:45

Feminism is the political movement for the liberation of women.

It's right there on the tin, d00d.

RedToothBrush · 18/01/2020 22:47

medium.com/4th-wave-feminism/the-rules-of-misogyny-bca9a6e111e7
The full revised list of rules.

Endymion1 · 18/01/2020 22:48

Red you are making things up now.

Tom.

OP posts:
Creepster · 18/01/2020 22:48

Flowers Cake Lang!!!

T0tallyFuckedUpFamily · 18/01/2020 22:49

Totally I didn't say a was a woman.

I think it’s very evident that you’re a penis barer, by your patronising language and lack of knowledge in what it takes to be a feminist.

Hint: It does not involve being bepenised now or in the past.

RedToothBrush · 18/01/2020 22:50

Tom I'm sure that the women on this thread can read the exchange and make up their own minds.

That's how I feel about it, and don't regard myself as making up anything.

Endymion1 · 18/01/2020 22:54

Yes Red I agree.

Tom,

OP posts:
RedToothBrush · 18/01/2020 23:05

Thanks for your approval Tom Hmm

T0tallyFuckedUpFamily · 18/01/2020 23:10

I don’t think Tom even understands what he is trying to say, so don’t expect too much from the bepenised one, RedToothBrush. 😁

Wrybread · 18/01/2020 23:22

This is fascinating!

Tom, you've consistently ignored all the actual feminists telling you that calling women "ovary havers" is not ok.

You seem to fail to understand that women are allowed to define themselves, and that by arguing the point, you're showing that you don't listen to women.

Most feminists agree that only women can be feminists, but that men can be feminist allies. However being an ally means listening to women and lifting up their voices rather than assuming that your know better than they do.

Are you able to see why this thread has gone so awry?

You're not listening to women, and are lifting up your own ideas (without the experience of a lived female life) above those of the women responding.