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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

See all MNHQ comments on this thread

Things Change:

158 replies

Endymion1 · 12/01/2020 17:13

Most people born with ovaries can give birth when reaching a certain age, but that does not mean that people who are not born with ovaries do not want children, nor does that mean that one must have been born with ovaries to have a desire to take care of children. Having children and having the children survive to have their own children is how genes get passed along. Human babies are particularly helpless for an extended periods-of-time, so evolutionarily it makes sense that both mothers and fathers would have a desire to have children and to take care of them. Many people in our current society may feel that it is obvious that those feelings would naturally and biologically be stronger in mothers than in fathers, but that is not necessarily the case. Further, in our current society mothers do most of the childcare, but it is not certain that necessarily must be the case. Also, currently there is there is a wage gap, between women and men, but again it is not certain that has to be. In fact, this wage gap is narrowing. Prior to the 1960s women have been clearly and overtly discriminated against in terms of jobs and education. Laws were passed in the 1960s to make this discrimination more difficult. After that, not surprisingly, the wage gap decreased. There have also been other changes. Following is a summary of some of these changes in the United States.

Regarding the wage gap, women made 60.7% of what men made in 1960. This actually decreased to 57.6% in 1966, but shortly after the Equal Pay Act of 1963 it started to increase until it reached 81.6% in 2018, see here: www.pay-equity.org/info-time.html. The Women’s Civilian Labor Force Participation Rate increased from 28.6% in 1948 to 57.6% in 2016, while during the same period the Men’s Civilian Labor Force Participation Rate decreased from 71.4% to 53.2%. Thus, these rates narrowed from 42.8% in 1948 to 6.4% in 2016. These figures are for the US, but most likely are similar for the UK. See here: www.dol.gov/wb/stats/NEWSTATS/facts/women_lf.htm#LFPMotherChild.

A chart from the US Labor Department shows the Labor Force Participation Rate for Mothers by age of youngest child from 1975 to 2016. Of greatest interest is the increase of this rate for mothers whose youngest child is under 3. It went from 34.3% in 1974 to 63.1% in 2016. This could be due to women’s desire to be with their young children, instead of being at work for pay, decreasing (possibly due to a shifting of social norms or values). See here: www.dol.gov/wb/stats/NEWSTATS/facts/women_lf.htm#LFPMotherChild.

This chart from Pew Research shows there has been an increase in the percentage of households with a stay at home father from 2.0% between 1976 and 1979 to 3.5% between 2000 and 2009. See here: www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2013/09/17/more-men-on-the-daddy-track/. While that amount is still small the increase was 75%. And then this chart shows that the percentage of households where the mother worked full time and the father worked part-time or not at all increased from 2% in 1970 to 6% in 2015, see here: www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2015/11/04/how-american-parents-balance-work-and-family-life-when-both-work/ft_15-11-04_parenting-ft/. This suggests that feelings among mothers and fathers, regarding childcare is changing with fathers taking on more of the traditional mothering role and mothers taking on more of the traditional fathering role.

Here is a chart that shows that between 1989 and 2016 the percentage of fathers that do not work outside of the home because they are taking care of the home or family increased from 4% to 24% while during the same period the percentage of mothers doing the same decreased from 86% to 78%. While more mothers still stay home for that reason than men do, the percentages are converging, see here: www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2019/06/12/fathers-day-facts/ft_19-06-10_fathersday_1/. And according to this graph between 1965 and 2016 the number of hours per week “Dads” spend on Childcare increased from 2.5 to 8; the number of hours per week “Dads” spend on housework increased from 4 to 10 and the number of hours “Dads” spend on paid work decreased from 46 to 43. During the same time the number of hours “Moms” (Mums) spend per week on Childcare increased from 10 to 14; the number of hours “Moms” spend on Housework decreased from 32 to 18 and the number of hours “Moms” spend on paid work increased from 9 to 25, see here: www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2019/06/12/fathers-day-facts/ft_18-05-01_fathersday_time/. Further, according to a graph in this pew article within married couples 13% of women earned more than the man in 1980; 19% of women earned more than the man in 1990 and 23% of women earned more than the man in 2000. The figure for 2017 is 28% of women earned more than the man in married and cohabiting couples, see here: www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2017/09/20/americans-see-men-as-the-financial-providers-even-as-womens-contributions-grow/. So, the percentage of women earning more than men in married couple has increased, at least between 1980 and 2000 and possibly even into 2017.

This graph from Pew Research shows a sharp increase in the fertility rate between 1950 (the earliest date shown) and the late 1950s, then a sharp drop off between the late 1950s and the 1970s and then a leveling off: www.pewresearch.org/wp-content/uploads/2019/05/FT_19.05.16_FertilityUpdate.png?w=640. This could be due to the introduction of the birth control pill in the 1950s, which gave people more control over how many children they had, suggesting the either people’s desire to have children (possibly due to a shifting of social norms or values) had changed or that it wasn’t as strong as the earlier fertility rates indicated.

Things that change are not fixed so as women’s and men’s roles have changed, they are not fixed. That is biology is not destiny, meaning women and men are not chained to their roles by biology.

Could it be possible, taking into consideration, that more women now graduate from college than men that sometime in the future there could be a “reverse” wage gap with women earning more than men and then men being more likely to stay home and take care of the kids. I’m not predicting this will happen, I’m just urging people to be skeptical about claims that something is natural and biological and therefore unchangeable. Also, my position is that people take on the role that they want. If a woman wants to stay home and be a full time Mum that’s fine and if a man wants to stay home and be a full time Dad that is also fine.

For more information on change see “Women in history and an examination of gender norms:” here: www.mumsnet.com/Talk/feminist_theory/3736953-Women-in-history-and-an-examination-of-gender-norms and kindly comment.

Tom,

OP posts:
FTFOTFVille · 18/01/2020 22:10

Really Tom, write it in a respectful manner, and people (with or without ovaries) will read it. I suspect you mean well

BernardBlacksWineIceLolly · 18/01/2020 22:10

it's quite fun when we get a 'behold' type man

one of the few occasions we're allowed to be as rude to a visitor as they deserve

Endymion1 · 18/01/2020 22:11

Red i did not say that women can't call themselves women. I agree only women can give birth.

Tom,

OP posts:
NoSquirrels · 18/01/2020 22:11

Hello Tom.

I think what you’re missing in your analysis is perception. You haven’t drawn any conclusions or offered any actual opinion to get a discussion going.

And you seem confused about trans women and their ability to bear children.

I’m sure you mean well but you can’t have a discussion on a talk board if there’s no actual question being discussed...

T0tallyFuckedUpFamily · 18/01/2020 22:12

If I referred to women able to give birth I could be accusted of including trans women.

It might come as a shock to you, but the women on here are actually aware that male bodied people can’t give birth, no matter how they identify. I know it might be difficult for you comprehend, but there’s also another scientific expression to describe people with ovaries, female. There’s no ambiguity with that descriptive term, is there? By the way, I don’t have ovaries, so are you saying that I don’t belong in the group known as women/females? How bloody dare you, you patronising penis head.

Creepster · 18/01/2020 22:12

Any bets on this being the Midnight Misogynist taking a new tack?

JulesJules · 18/01/2020 22:14

Surely this is a spoof?

T0tallyFuckedUpFamily · 18/01/2020 22:15

Any bets on this being the Midnight Misogynist taking a new tack?

He certainly sounds as arrogant.

Tubbytwo · 18/01/2020 22:16

Mr Testes, what you said was not currect (sic) and no-one agreed with it. You are absolutely right that It (sic) is not wanted though if by It (sic) you mean a load of patronising drivel? Congratulations on getting one out of three facts correct! Is that a first for you? 🤔

Endymion1 · 18/01/2020 22:17

Lazy lingish my posts are not vague, pompous, or waffly.

FTFO, thank you I did mean well.

Rernard You are being rude.

Tom,

OP posts:
Creepster · 18/01/2020 22:18

Recipes at forty paces any minute now.

RedToothBrush · 18/01/2020 22:19

I agree only women can give birth.

Then call them women then instead of trying to be a clever dick and calling us 'ovary havers'

Simple.

Using word salad is a way of trying to deliberately exclude by signalling you regard yourself to be intellectual and have liberal virtue and that only those who engage in a similar fashion to prove their intellectual and liberal prowess are really welcome at the debate, whilst pretending to be inclusive.

The art of discussing complex issues in a way that's accessible to all and truly inclusive in simple terms is somehow regarded as old fashioned, but really needs to be highlighted as essential to good debate.

Endymion1 · 18/01/2020 22:20

Insulting me does not make me wrong and you right.

Tubby. everything was correct and no one said they didn;'t agree.

Tom,

OP posts:
midcenturylegs · 18/01/2020 22:20

I have to correct you on another spelling mistake Tom. It's 'transwomen', not 'trans women'. Language is really important. Also you lost me (as you may have done others) at "Most people born with ovaries". Who are you trying to not offend?

Laughable.

Tables,

KTJean · 18/01/2020 22:22

As a single parent also working to support my children, let me tell you that I cannot do what I want Tom - I need to organise my working life around my children’s needs. Their father on the hand can do exactly what he wants - travel, see friends, do whatever he does with his time and be mostly absent. Am I actually really both parents in one?!?

Katy,

Endymion1 · 18/01/2020 22:23

Red you accuse me of being rude, but you certainly are. Is that alowwed in this forum?

Tom,

OP posts:
Tubbytwo · 18/01/2020 22:23

Ball bearer, your posts make even less sense now than they did at the beginning. Actually, that’s quite an achievement 😂

RedToothBrush · 18/01/2020 22:25

Lazy lingish my posts are not vague, pompous, or waffly.

Erm. Yes they are.

And they are deliberately exclusionary.

They say 'look at me, I'm intellectual because I use fancy words and all the trendy phrases, therefore what I say has importance and good because its signaling my liberal values even if its completely meaningless bullshit'

If you can't say the same stuff in a way which engages with your audience and makes them want to listen to you then you might as well shout forever into the void if space never to be heard.

Communication is just writing words that you like.

RedToothBrush · 18/01/2020 22:25

Sorry

*Communication isn't just writing words that you like.

RedToothBrush · 18/01/2020 22:27

Red you accuse me of being rude, but you certainly are. Is that alowwed in this forum?

I'm trying to illustrate the point you've deliberately missed. I'm not being deliberately rude.

I'm trying to explain why you have grossly misjudged your original post.

Endymion1 · 18/01/2020 22:28

Katy, welcome. I am sure you cannot do what you want because their father does exactly what he wants. That is why I am a Feminist becuase of men like that.

Tom,

OP posts:
Creepster · 18/01/2020 22:30

8th rule of misogyny: Men are whatever men say they are and women are whatever men say they are.

Endymion1 · 18/01/2020 22:31

Red you are being deliberately rude and you are being deliberately rude again. I wasn't.

Tom,

OP posts:
StrangeLookingParasite · 18/01/2020 22:31

If I referred to women able to give birth I could be accusted of including trans women.

No. No you would not.

Also, the US is not the world. And i did not learn anything new from your post.

Tubbytwo · 18/01/2020 22:32

Well done, Penis in Your Pants! How lovely that you are welcoming Katy. Are you under the impression that you own the forum and can show ‘Hello’ readers around your glamorous home? 😆