How can barbers tell the difference?

[JellySlice]

How can barbers tell the difference between men and women, if biology doesn't matter but performing gender stereotypes does?

I remember Magdalen Berns talking about this at the beginning of one of her videos.

It's bloody ridiculous. No gender bias? BS.

The problem for the barbers is they've got one customer group who just want a very straightforward haircut and another customer group for whom "Hair is a huge part of queer culture and lesbian identity as well, so I can't help but feel there is some homophobia wrapped up in all these refusals I've had."

Although barbers probably don't think in those terms they're aware that something is going on that it not part of their normal service offer and in some cases are reluctant to get involved.

Blanket refusal is one thing. Differential pricing for the same haircut is another and is wrong.

Dublin barber fined €5,000 in transgender discrimination case
‘We don’t cut ladies’ hair. I’m sorry,’ barber told transgender man Lee McLoughlin (28)

Jul 26, 2018

www.irishtimes.com/news/ireland/irish-news/dublin-barber-fined-5-000-in-transgender-discrimination-case-1.3577517

When my sons have gone from long hair (bicep length or longer) to a short conventional man's cut, the barbers never had any issue, though charged them more. They usually paid mid- to high-£20s: much more than a basic barber price, but much less than a basic salon price.

When ds got bored with his dyed hair, the roots were showing and he wanted to return to his regular colour, the barber said that he didn't do colour or stripping out colour, the only way he would return ds to his natural colour was by cutting his hair. Because all he did was cut hair. Fair enough. So that's what he did.

Each time the barbers were asked to deal with stereotypically feminine hair. Situations definitely outside their normal service offer. Yet somehow they had no difficulty recognising that the feminine hair was growing out of a male head, and carrying out their normal service.

As for hair as part of sexual orientation culture being a problem for them - nonsense! Plenty of gay men are particular about their hair and use specific styles as culture messages, and plenty of straight women simply want short, unfussy hair.

My mum has a short "mans" haircut. She has been turned away from barbers too. It's daft really - the hair is not different. The haircut is not different. She objects to paying lady salon prices for what is essentially a short back and sides, so has kept looking and found a barber happy to cut her hair and charge the haircut price not the lady price.

My son has also been turned away from a barbers, his hair is shoulder length, on the basis of hair-too-long. I think that's fair enough.

As a teenager I only went to barber's and was never turned away - I paid £5 for a haircut instead of £20+ at a hairdresser's.

Although, if I were turned away I'd move onto the next one and consider it their loss as my money's going somewhere just not to them!
I don't really understand why people get so het up about other people having an opinion different to theirs.

I am a tomboy. Always have been, always will be.
Biologically I am a woman. Always have been, always will be.

Other people view me differently. I don't care what 99% of people think - I choose who's opinion matters to me and I respect it even if I don't agree with it.

Barbers don't turn women away to discriminate - they're simply not trained to the same level as hairdressers because they don't have to be.

They should be allowed to turn away whomever they want to for any reason.

*Barbers don't turn women away to discriminate - they're simply not trained to the same level as hairdressers because they don't have to be.

They should be allowed to turn away whomever they want to for any reason.*

BS, they turn women away despite them having identical hair to male customers. They should be able to say some cuts are beyond their expertise, but not just refuse to serve women.

Barbers and hairdressers are absolutely right to turn away any customer if they feel they cannot confidently cut their hair. The training is completely different and the techniques are different. ( I am qualified in both)

The training is completely different and the techniques are different.

For a short-back-and-sides? Because that's what we're talking about. Not expecting barbers to do bobs.

My sister used to go to DHs barber - very old world Greek place. Same price, no fuss. She did have a shirt back and sides (still does).

The barber in Dublin was in a very difficult position though. His employer’s lease literally barred them from competing with the nearby women’s salon (same landlord presumably), so it has nothing to do with pricing and everything to do with the employer’s rules. The barber was damned if he did, damned if he didn’t. If he had cut the hair of the customer, legally his landlord could have tried to evict them. I don’t know how an Irish lawyer would view the breach of contract as the trans man in question had only very recently come out as trans so had not changed sex legally.

Obviously the customer should have had their hair cut, but they weren’t to know that there was a non-compete in place.

Barbers, as a general rule are men, they possess penises. Penises are well known to give the owner the ability, and indeed, the right, to tell people what gender they are. See Owen Jones for further details.

My BIL is a barber and cuts ladies hair. No problem in his barber shop.

I think I remember reading research once that shows sex differences in the angle of growth of scalp hair. That’s why female hair goes up more at the root whereas male hair grows out flatter to the scalp. Texture is also different. Both differences are due to hormonal influences. (Across the life course).

Also barbers can work with men only if they want, just as some women’s services prefer to only serve female clients.

@JellySlice I do agree it seems strange. But honestly it would be cut slightly different.

The barber in Dublin was in a very difficult position though.

As will we all be, when we are expected to deny reality.

DH was turned away from a barber when he had long hair, but women shouldn't be turned away if they have "men's" haircuts.

Are hairdressers trained to cut both male and female hair, as well as masculine and feminine styles?

@JellySlice they do use different techniques.

While I personally prefer to use hairdressers who regularly cut men's hair, barbers shouldn't be turning away women who are happy from them to mostly/completely use clippers.

@JellySlice depends on the country. In England all my hairdressers have specifically said they have gone on extra courses to learn to cut men's hair. When I worked abroad my hairdressers explained they learnt it as part of their normal training.

"Hairdressing" is women's hair cutting

"Barbering" is men's hair cutting

Of course with experience you can do both even if you are only trained in one

Men & Women have different hair. Apart from receding harilines, females have denser hair, with more follicles per Cm2, and those follicles have stronger roots. The circus woman spinning from her ponytail, men can't do that.

The reason seems to be evolutionary sexual selection.

Barbers don't turn women away to discriminate - they're simply not trained to the same level as hairdressers because they don't have to be.

They should be allowed to turn away whomever they want to for any reason.

This is such utter nonsense. ds and dd1 basically have the same haircut. Shaved at the back and sides and longer on top. If anything ds hair is harder as it has a thick wave in it, whereas dds hair is dead straight.

We have 3 barbera within walking disctance of us. 2 are quite new Turkish barbers. Ds and dd just walk in, get a haircut and walk out.

No difference at all.

I on the other hand go to a hairdressers, where the sign says one price for ladies' short hair and one price for mens' short hair. I took dd there once and asked for the short mens' cut. She was charged for the short ladies' cut.
If I had used a male name for her instead of her normal name, they would have been none the wiser and charged her as a man. Needless to say, she hasn't been back, and I am plucking up the courage to challenge them over it.