A dirty word

[jakeyboy1]

Was at a work do last night. Chatting to 3 other women. 2 senior to me, 1 junior.
We were talking about the differences between men and women in our home lives, usual stuff having to sort everything out as we were all out tonight etc.

Led on to discussing men at work. We work in a male dominated industry that is known for being quite chauvinist, our company accepts it has a gender pay issue and is trying to improve. It also accepts it does not have enough women leaders. I highlighted the "boys club" issue to which the two senior ones said they had never felt that about our company (I highly doubt this - I think it's a saving face thing because they are senior being of the attitude well it didn't stop me).

I said something along the lines of I hadn't really experienced any other work place like this and I don't know if it's age and experience or getting more feminist as I get older that makes me notice how bad it is here. Cue audible gasps and shock horror when I said the word feminist!

These are two female senior directors in a big company. Is saying the word feminist such a shocking thing?! I'm perplexed!

Oh and to add one of them said "there is a lot of man hating at the moment that I don't subscribe too." !!

People don't realise what the word feminist means and think it's about hating men.

I usually ask such people 'do you think a man and a woman working in identical jobs deserve to get the same salary?'

And when they inevitably say yes I confirm that makes them a feminist.

'but I'm a feminist and I don't hate men- I'm married to one! Imagine where we'd be if it weren't for feminism- no vote, no equal pay, not allowed to get a mortgage etc etc'

Yes I've found it's a difficult word to say. Not as hard as 'patriarchy' which I feel makes me into some weirdo/man-hating monster.

Ironically of course, because of the patriarchy.

You can't fix a problem if you can't name it. I'd love to go around discussing women's oppression and the need for our liberation, but I can only imagine the reaction I'd get

I find it very odd when I woman says that they're not a feminist.

They are saying I don't believe that I should have equal rights and an equal place in society.

Which is a pretty dysfunctional opinion to have of yourself.

I was just shocked that two women in high powered positions would err be shocked by me saying it. Felt like a tumbleweed.
It's like "well I'm alright so there can't be an issue."

They probably whinge when women take time off for pregnancy.

It is very disheartening.

I'm not surprised at all. Our culture is geared up towards the patriarchy protecting itself.

It's not any individual woman's fault, if they've been misled about what feminism is. There's a reason it's not taught at school!

I worked for years somewhere that sounds very similar to your workplace. There were a number of official 'initiatives' to supposedly get more women in senior positions etc. But in reality female staff very rarely actually spoke of any inequalities or mentioned the 'f' word. Any who did speak out (even in groups set up to, in theory at least, address diversity and equality) were treated as trouble causers/not team players etc and roundly disagreed with. I noticed that the few women in very senior positions were particularly vocal in shutting down any feminist discussion. Not sure if this was a case of wanting to fit in with their male peers, fear that not towing the line would damage their credibility, or perhaps that the women who were more alligned with the thinking of their male peers did better.

Just before I decided to leave, I went to the launch of a 'focus group' aimed at increasing the number of female members of staff who stayed with the business after maternity leave. The (male) director heading this up started by stating that this was to be an' inclusive and positive group' and not 'some kind of feminist man bashing gang'. Needless to say, none of the ideas they came up with really addressed the problems and they pretty much concluded that women leave after they have children because they stop being interested in their careers, or have never really been as interested as they claimed. The only ideas that they came up with were making some of the maternity pay (over and above statutory) repayable if you left within a certain number of years and getting women who have recently returned from mat leave to mentor pregnant staff on ways they can manage work and children better. So ignoring the real issues, making it financially difficult to leave, and giving new mothers yet another job. Brilliant!

We were talking about the differences between men and women in our home lives, usual stuff having to sort everything out as we were all out tonight etc

Feminism seems to have failed you completely then. Why on earth is "having to sort everything out" so you can have a night out seen by you as "usual"?

@TheTigersBride wasn't necessarily me saying those things!

@wheresmymouseorgan spookily similar. Could literally be the same place!

“Feminism has fought no wars. It has killed no opponents. It has set up no concentration camps, starved no enemies, practiced no cruelties. Its battles have been for education, for the vote, for better working conditions, for safety in the streets, for child care, for social welfare, for rape crisis centres, women's refuges, reforms in the law. If someone says, 'Oh, I'm not a feminist', I ask, 'Why? What's your problem?”

― Dale Spender, Man Made Language

I find it very odd when I woman says that they're not a feminist. They are saying I don't believe that I should have equal rights and an equal place in society.

That isn't necessarily the case. There are some people who would define feminism that way, but also many, including many feminists, who would not.They would have a much more specific set of criteria based on feminist theory since the 60's, for example accepting the idea of patriarchy. Some people may not want to use the word feminist because there are elements of feminist theory that they disagree with, but they may very much believe in equality of the sexes.

I expected that the dirty word was going to be 'woman'. As in 'adult human female', with no disclaimers coming before it. But I agree feminism in some circles is running it a close second.

Women standing up for women and centering women has always been regarded as a naughty thing to do.

The sad thing is, the female people suffering from this internalised misogyny, valuing themselves only by how good girl they will be seen by males and seeking status by being gooder than other girls in bigging up males in varying ways (see relationships board for MILs doing this with biggest portions etc) are the Stockholm Syndrome sufferers most desperately in need of a bit of feminist teaching.

Female people are actually allowed to define themselves as female instead of in relation to the more important species.

For many of us, and I include men, 'feminism' has been interpreted as:

Man-hating
Lentil-weaving
Bra-burning
Single-track
Rejecting femininity
Harsh
Strident

And people do not want to associate themselves with such values or mindsets. Even those who believe in equality and equity of the sexes may hesitate to call themselves 'a Feminist' as they do not associate themselves with every aspect of what they think feminism means. Just as someone who believes in and supports a F@POS NHS, might hesitate to call themselves a Socialist, because they also support a free market economy.

It is through MN that I have learned what Feminism actually is. And it seems to me that Feminism is actually very feminine. Not that feminists perform society's feminine stereotypes, but that our way of thinking and acting are far closer to the way women generally behave - with greater co-operation, with emphasis on constructive activities, with concern for society in general - than to the way men tend to behave. Even when we express our anger, there is a distinct lack of aggression.

@JellySlice

Not that feminists perform society's feminine stereotypes, but that our way of thinking and acting are far closer to the way women generally behave - with greater co-operation, with emphasis on constructive activities, with concern for society in general - than to the way men tend to behave

I agree wholeheartedly. And have come to the view that this is exactly why the idea of all women identifying as feminists is such an uncomfortable idea for some. Imagine how powerful it would be if 50% of the global population co-operated together to demand better treatment. Far better to keep us trying to do things the way of the patriarchy and persuade us that 'feminists' are man hating, unrealistic kill-joys.

**JellySlice I completely agree. Very well said, thank you for articulating what I struggle to.

People don't realise what the word feminist means and think it's about hating men.

Some people will believe anything their tabloid tells them to believe. The Sun etc don't hold back in that dept. They really hate feminists don't they?

It is through MN that I have learned what Feminism actually is.

Seconded.

@FFSFFSFFS:

They probably whinge when women take time off for pregnancy.

I should bloody well think so, too. I gave birth behind a filing cabinet whilst simultaneously taking a call from our Kuala Lumpur office and typing up a briefing for the Deputy Director.

Feminism is the political movement for the liberation of women so it is no surprise that Feminists have been called everything from shrews to man haters to transphobes by misogynists over the years.
After all, women saying no to men is a hate crime.

It's fucking weird that women with feminist politics don't call themselves feminists. It's not something we ever had trouble with when I was growing up, when I was a teen, or when I was a young adult. I don't know any Gen X woman who doesn't describe herself as a feminist if her politics lean that way.

There's certainly a lot of misunderstanding and misinformation about feminism. It is a social and political movement, or rather a collection of movements and struggles. Many people (especially women) seem uninterested in 'politics' and expressing strong views and opinions on issues, so will want to avoid conversations that lean towards such topics.

I suppose for the average woman there can also be a lot of uncertainty in what to call yourself if you don't necessarily agree with all the positions in an ideological paradigm.

Here and elsewhere, there can be shock and surprise at how someone can call themselves a feminist if they question this or don't automatically support that. Whether Rad fem or Lib fem or other types, it can seem like you have to accept certain positions as a package deal.

I'd call myself a feminist if I was pressed to define myself, just as I would say I'm left-leaning. However, I tend to approach issues on a case by case basis and look for what works best. It's tempting to resort to a default position and then try to fit solutions around it, but I try to remember to consider different viewpoints and strategies and that feminism may not necessarily have all the answers.
I don't read feminist theory and many other women don't either. I suppose I'd be considered as not a particularly good feminist because some of my viewpoints can be critical, skeptical or unsupportive of certain ideological positions. Plus some of the activities or things I enjoy might be said to be disrespectful to women or indicative that I don't care enough about women to change my behaviour.