A dirty word

[jakeyboy1]

Was at a work do last night. Chatting to 3 other women. 2 senior to me, 1 junior.
We were talking about the differences between men and women in our home lives, usual stuff having to sort everything out as we were all out tonight etc.

Led on to discussing men at work. We work in a male dominated industry that is known for being quite chauvinist, our company accepts it has a gender pay issue and is trying to improve. It also accepts it does not have enough women leaders. I highlighted the "boys club" issue to which the two senior ones said they had never felt that about our company (I highly doubt this - I think it's a saving face thing because they are senior being of the attitude well it didn't stop me).

I said something along the lines of I hadn't really experienced any other work place like this and I don't know if it's age and experience or getting more feminist as I get older that makes me notice how bad it is here. Cue audible gasps and shock horror when I said the word feminist!

These are two female senior directors in a big company. Is saying the word feminist such a shocking thing?! I'm perplexed!

In my experience it’s “I’m not a feminist but” followed by listing out how they agree with feminist ideas and finish with “and of course I love men” 🙄🙄

In my working experience, senior women have been probably the most unhelpful to women in the workplace.
Either they haven't had kids and don't see why anyone else should.
Or they have, and they worked until the day before they gave birth, took half an hour's maternity and if they did it then everyone else can.
There have been some exceptions, but the above is very common.

Unfortunately in order to get to senior places, many women have had to work like men, act like men and think like men. They have to go along with the male view and often think of themselves as having more in common with the senior men than the less senior women.

And the confirmation bias that there cannot be any sexism at play because they’ve managed to make it. A bit like female doctors who diminish menstrual pain because their periods are three days long and painless.

@Deathgrip

I agree. In the workplace I mentioned upthread there were a couple of fairly senior women who openly say sexist things that I suspect most of the senior men believed but would not say so openly. For example- one told anyone who would listen that it was just a 'fact' that women who were pregnant became less committed to their careers and so it was natural that few women with children made it to the top positions in the business. She also told a male colleague who frequently left on time (not early) to collect his child from nursery that his wife should be doing this. She also insisted on very early morning 'breakfast briefings' for her team- telling anyone who mentioned the difficulties this caused for childcare that their domestic arrangements were not her problem. The general view was that she could not be called out on this as she was female herself so could not be sexist. I have a suspicion that her male peers set her up to deliver sexist messages on their behalf.

Many people (especially women) seem uninterested in 'politics' and expressing strong views and opinions on issues, so will want to avoid conversations that lean towards such topics.

Well, it directly contradicts the rules of female socialisation, doesn’t it?

• Don’t ram your intelligence down people’s throats by demonstrating any knowledge or learning. Pretend you have no concept of anything serious and are the least intelligent person present.
• Don’t express any strong opinions that might upset or offend anyone, or worst of all make you sound “strident”.
• At all times be light, playful and gentle. Conversation with you should be a nice relief from serious and potentially difficult man talk.

Yes, women who are knowledgeable and speak up about their thoughts and opinions are viewed quite negatively. Viewed as 'being difficult', always harping on about stuff.
Men are allowed to be straightforward, but a woman 'hurts' and 'upsets' people by doing the same.

People in general, and women in particular due to socialisation, don't like to be known as someone who 'isn't a nice person'. Therefore as social mammals, when in a group, we will distance ourselves from the person who seems to be flouting any unspoken rules or is labelled as problematic.

wheresmymouseorgan

I had a female senior manager who openly warned against recruiting young women who might leave to have babies. She was in her 40s and never had children. No male colleagues put her up to it - they were her own opinions.

I think when you say you're a feminist there are some people that assume you're a bit radicalised and militant. It's like a step too far for them...

If a woman says to me that they're not a feminist I ask them what they think a feminist is.
I also have moved away from thinking of it in terms of equality. I like the concept of liberation and equality of access rather than equality in a strict sense.
My DD gets a lot of 'what about the men' when she talks about this at school. She rather likes answering 'what about the men? Feminism is about women'.

I don't think anyone at work who knows me is in any doubt that I'm a feminist. It may have held me back, but not as much as useless managers, bias, etc have.

And if it means they sometimes stop and think, "what is Emma going to say about this?" that's progress on never thinking about it at all.

I gave birth behind a filing cabinet whilst simultaneously taking a call from our Kuala Lumpur office and typing up a briefing for the Deputy Director.

Bet that was fun for the cleaners.

Unpacking a lifetime of conditioning is hard work.
I don't know if Plato's unexamined life is worth living or not but it is a hell of a lot less work.

@deydododatdodontdeydo
I think I've not worded my post clearly- the views re pregnant women etc were definitely my female colleague's own opinions but I suspect that her male peers actively encouraged her to voice them. She was certainly frequently asked to 'manage' staff who were being 'difficult' when any objective bystander would have seen that she wasn't going to be very sensitive in her approach.

Get this a lot. I think there is a generation gap. My beloved boss, in her 60s, recruits a sex balanced (technical) team, knows she's been passed over at work for mediocre men, and has been affected by male violence in her family - insists she's not a feminist.