Anyone else have a woke teen?

[Catsfriend]

I am so tired of having to listen to my teen who has swallowed the whole Stonewall playbook hook line and sinker.
I would type out a whole rant here but after two hours of arguing back and forth, I am angry, tired and frustrated.
It doesn’t help that she is incapable of acknowledging that grey areas even exist.
I told her that we fundamentally agree on two premises: 1) everyone should be able to live the life that they want to and 2) everyone should be able to do this in a safe space. As you may have guessed, excluding trans women from toilets is where we disagree. I ended the discussion this evening by telling her that until she fully understands what it means to be a woman and navigate life as a woman in society she would never comprehend why I and so many other women (I didn’t even dare tell her that this includes several relatives and friends) are concerned about the ramifications for women’s rights.
And that next time she wants to cite statistics, she would do well to check and cross-check the source first.
I love her dearly but this just keeps on coming up again and again... so fed up of these heated discussions.
When I mentioned the Cyclepath’s “disown” tweet, she did have the good sense to say that that was just plain stupid.

Yes, I have one who will explain to her younger brother why sports are sex-segregated, and who will point out to me annoying gender-stereotyping in shops, yet is completely committed to TWAW. The cognitive dissonance is overwhelming.

Yeah.

A woke trans teen.

We have discussed, seriously, a number of times. Currently it's off limits for discussion for both of us.

I think arguing with teens can sometimes made them become more stubborn about their beliefs.

I am aiming for high boundaries, low conflict.

Now early 20s DD is very woke.

For a while she was pretty militant about this stuff, identified as pansexual and non binary and would spend a lot of time arguing with people.

She's matured a lot now, no longer identifies and non binary and is an out and proud lesbian. We still disagree pretty strongly on gender ideology but in a mostly good natured way. She has called me a T*RF before and told me to get off Mumsnet but I can just roll my eyes and brush it off.

We have had some discussions where she has seen my point of view, she believes in single sex spaces and sports so has not toally drunk the cool aid.

I think you need to step away from the arguments and conflict and agree to disagree. What child and parent agree on everything anyway?

There has been some absolutely dreadful arguments in my family about it all with younger siblings (early 20s). It is completely off the table now for discussion and I cannot even put anything on social media in case it erupts again. I just had to grit my teeth and not go there. Any argument ended with them being more entrenched in their position because once they’d labelled me as a nasty, bigoted t*rf they had to justify it and defend that position at all costs. There was and is absolutely no reasoning with them or any chance they might see my point of view because they have written me off on that front. We do get along but only if this isn’t mentioned.

I actually find it very hurtful so I have every sympathy for you. It’s horrible to be dismissed and written off, particularly when it relates to views on safeguarding children, which has always been my primary concern about the whole sorry mess. I think when people are teens and early 20s it can be hard to truly empathise with something you have never experienced as your brain hasn’t fully matured but it’s very frustrating for others! How old is she? My approach with a 13yo would probably differ from what I would go for with an older teen.

My teen dd is pretty 'woke' I think. It stems from having a close friend who is trans (female to Male) and watching and supporting them through their ordeals. They are year 11, this has been going on two years.

While I do have every compassion for this trans teen, I think they are going through some incredibly difficult things, I have had to be very open with my dd about my feelings in general. It's hard to separate in her mind. She sees her friend as representative of all trans people and is being fed a lot of Internet/woke info from this person.

Her trans friend identifies as a gay male and I have had to have very frank discussions with my dd about the reality of life for this person, and to equip her to deal with the potential that her dear friend could be hugely vulnerable in the adult world (ie. what kind of person is going to seek relationships with a very troubled, female bodied 'gay Male') and have had to make my stance one of support (both for dd and her friend) because I would rather they felt they could come to me for support.

It troubles me greatly.

I do try to point out situations in real life where a man identifying as a woman would have an unfair advantage over her, and also where she (and her trans friend) would be unwittingly vulnerable.

I'm not sure if it is sinking In or whether she actually agrees with me but doesn't want to be seen to be prejudiced. She's an intelligent, bright, articulate young lady so I cannot see how she could not agree with the biological arguments.

I ended the discussion this evening by telling her that until she fully understands what it means to be a woman and navigate life as a woman in society she would never comprehend..."

I think that comes across as pretty patronising. Why not engage with her arguments rather than belittle her because of her age?

Every sympathy. Managing a mutually respectful relationship with teens and early twenties can be very hard. They really do not expect / allow their parents to challenge them. And of course, they are subject to the most immense pressure to conform. Being a young person and daring to challenge this openly must be nigh on impossible. That's why the critical mass of public opinion that is finally being allowed to be heard is so important as this will trickle down (eventually)

Thanks all. I see that I’m not alone.

Cohle- my teen is extremely intelligent but this comes with behaviour that some would describe as autistic. It can be like talking to a wall. I hope she sees nuance with age because she will be entering uni one year earlier (two years earlier if she decides to sit upper 6th form exams this year). People may think having a smart child is smooth sailing but it comes with its fair share of problems and we have been dealing with them for quite a while.

All the young people I know are completely the other way... they think TWAW is a bizarre fringe belief akin to, say, anti-vaxxers or something.

I don’t know why TWAW is described as “woke”, surely it is a misogynistic belief? Do they believe poor and marginalised women in shelters or prison need to accept any male adult who says IAAW?

Is it not the role I’d the young to be extremist and unable to see balance generally ? That and kicking against parents

Our whole society tells teens that youth is good and that older adults are out of touch bigots. This has been going on since the 1960s; "ok Boomer" is just the latest manifestation. Of course, young people have always been idealistic and have chafed against older generations, but it is only in the last 50 or so years that the Establishment/Media told them they are right and that anyone older must be wrong, just by dint of their age.

What I find so sad & frightening is that young women are being manipulated into giving up their rights before they are old enough to understand what they are losing.

I’ve got one who thinks it’s utter horseshit and one on a one way ticket to wokeville.

I’m hopeful that he’ll grow up soon.

Oh yes, the Boomer narrative. I get this thrown at me a lot despite being Gen X

I have a woke teen. Two of his close friends are trans and he cannot see past the narrative. He thinks I'm a transphobic old bigot. We've had a few good conversations, though, and he's taken some of my points about biology and also about drugs and surgery for young people (he agrees that these shouldn't be allowed before 18). However he doesn't get the whole women's spaces thing, thinks I'm exaggerating the stats about male violence and rolls out the trans suicide stats, and doesn't believe me when I tell him about the debunking of such. Like a pp said, it's like talking to a brick wall at times. He's very intelligent and I think he comes from a place of compassion for his friends, which I commend. I try to avoid the subject in the main.

My DD just had her first term at uni. She went very gender critical but has come back with a few more woke tendencies (nothing wrong with TW in toilets etc) which is disappointing. We had a bit of a spat about it which to be fair ended in her saying I'd got a point - she said it's just she knew lots of troubled trans people and wanted them to be happy. And that's where it always comes from I think for young people, so it's easy to buy into the narrative.

I guess we can only keep on being willing to talk if they wish to, and willing to listen too.

I very much sympathise with you OP.

My eldest DD has just graduated from a v woke uni and is very TWAW. I find this very challenging to comprehend - she would describe herself as a feminist but very much liberal rather than radical.

We did have an interesting discussion about TW in sport recently - she couldn't counter my arguments at all (I posted about it at the time).

We are very close and this is the only thing we completely disagree agree on - mainly we just don't discuss it.

My younger DD is gay and has lots of woke online friends, but actually gets it far more. She understands the safeguarding side of it.

Also caitlyn jenner helped her up the mountain - she just said so where is CJ's dysphoria! I explained about other reasons why older men tend to transition (not sure if I'm allowed to say it😔).

We have many discussions about the whole subject, and she is getting it more and more.

So there is hope!

A friend has one. Funnily enough, he's the same one I referred to on another thread who has lied about having dyslexia and has cheated his way through all his exams from having extra time.

Which considering he bangs on about social justice all the time, yet falls apart in a blustering snowflake tantrum if his parents or any other adult asks even one question of him, makes it even more hilarious/pathetic.

Woke is the buzzword for deluded.

OP could you ask your child if there are any in her peer group who haven't signed up to this?

Very selectively woke IMO. Red hot on trans rights. Utterly woolly about feminist rights-for-women issues. I don't engage much because normally I'm very laid back and they both start at the anger in my voice when I contfront the misgyny thinly veiled that they spout. But if they don;t mature and grow out of it in the next few years we will be having deep and detailed conversations for life.

Yeah. He'll grow out of it though.

I have the opposite. Gender critical early 20s DS within a very 'woke' (we used to call it 'right on') subculture/music scene. Because he is idealistic and passionate, he wants to publicly argue the case for women. But I have to keep reminding him to be very careful what he says/posts on SM. Because he is young and his friends/social life/music scene are too important to risk being ostracised from. He sends me stuff, memes he has made, via DM because he can't risk a pile on. It's so frustrating.

I have a woke lesbian teen. She knows my feelings on the issue. It all came to a head the time she told me it was trans people who started the stonewall riots and I lectured her on precisely who Storme De Laverie was and how she was effectively erasing lesbians from history.
I also have the "advantage" of having known one of the few murdered UK trans women. She does not like me pointing out that he was happy to present and be called "he" in a professional context where it was definitely to his advantage to be male and only put on the female persona in a restricted context. He was happy to use male privilege to his advantage when it suited him so any mention of the martyrdom of trans women gets the raised eyebrow from me.

I'm not sure if it is sinking In or whether she actually agrees with me but doesn't want to be seen to be prejudiced. She's an intelligent, bright, articulate young lady so I cannot see how she could not agree with the biological arguments

No matter how well you get in she will just categorise you as old, conservative and fuddy duddy...All young people do that with their parents. The most important thing to them is the spirit and zeitgeist of their time and their social circle....

Remember when we were young and full of idealistic fire and passion? I do! As years go by you gain the benefit of lived experience - and the shine comes off somewhat.

Yep, I have 2! We can’t even discuss it anymore. One DD even cried thinking I’d suddenly turned extreme right wing overnight. I’m drip feeding tiny points and hoping for a slow realisation- I’m guessing this will take years but that’s fine.
Irony is, they think there should be different places for sports and prisons on the whole but don’t see this is what would get them called Txxf too.

My year 10 DS is v gender critical, though he knows what he is meant to say in public so as not to offend anyone. There is a FtM child in his class and it's all a bit 'emperor's new clothes' at his school.

My Year 8 DD is more woke but also more feminist and is beginning to see the reality. Caitlyn Jenner in the jungle programme really helped demonstrate that TW are TW, and showed her privilege rather than what its like being a women your whole life.

I lived on the side of a road in a tent for two years at age 16-18 - outside a nuclear base. I spoke at rallies; to school and trade union groups......did every type of right o demonstration going.....etc

But then reality started to show its face.......people in the peace movement were not very peaceful.....all the usual inter-personal conflicts and strife...led me to more of an inner path.......if you cannot get yourself right, how can you help the world?

Idealism is a wonderful thing; beautiful visions for our secular times.....but then comes the conflicts and compromises.