Can men really grasp women’s reality re safety?

[Ritascornershop]

I have a 19 year old son who is very compassionate and left-wing (I mention that as he’s been indoctrinated in TWAW) but who can’t grasp the discomfort many women feel at men in women’s private spaces.

And recently a friend was telling me that a family member of his (who he has quite the blind spot over) broke up with his girlfriend. The gf had, before she met his family member, been sexually assaulted. She was naturally quite traumatized by the rape but trying to heal and met this guy and got in a relationship with him. The way my friend tells it. his family member broke up with her after a few months (during an argument) & family member “got so uoset” he punched a hole in the wall and broke a chair. She called the police and called friends. My friend seemed to feel she over-reacted! I think any woman would be frightened and that a woman who’d been sexually assaulted would be particularly terrified.

It does not seem a tricky concept to me, but both these men seem to not be able to wrap their heads around how frightening it can be to be vulnerable around larger, stronger, angry males. Is this something most men don’t get or are these two not trying very hard?

I think it's at least clear that all of this is the projection of fear and not reality. There may be a perceived threat that a woman walking home may be raped. Yes it night happen. But it's a fear, a bit like getting in a lift and having the fear the cable will snap

54000 rapes in the UK in 2018
40 lift cables snapped and injured/killed people since 1999.

Mega difference.

Women will always be attracted to strong ,competent, masculine, dominant men

Hmmmm! Rather a sweeping generalisation......and certainly not true for all.......Personally i've always gone for sensitive, aesthetically refined, spiritual, kind & gentle.....

The majority of men are capable of behaving perfectly well

That is why decent and honourable men know that they are not welcome in women's intimate spaces. They recognise the specific vulnerabilities of women; and because many of them actually like women, and want to be brotherly ( or fatherly) they wouldn't dream of pushing those particular boundaries.

It is the men who want to push and push at the boundaries that are the problem. In civil life - single sex spaces protect the privacy and dignity of both sexes.

Yes. It is totally alien to my life experience. Do you have a difficulty believing what women say

You are seriously suggesting that you have never been the subject of unwanted sexual attention either as a child or as a woman. Or never felt at all anxious when walking alone to come across a large male, or several? Or has comments shouted at you across a street? Had your bottom slapped, or your breasts groped in a crowd......Never been exposed to a flasher, or a 'heavy breathing' phone call...so many circumstances...you really have never felt at all vulnerable down to your sex?

Although I'm not sure why you'd put the label 'masculine' in there. There's never anything wrong being masculine.

Just because you are male does not necessarily equate to stereotypical masculine behaviours or traits, though. women can be aggressive too - but an aggressive male can do far more damage.It's not just physical aggression, though - it is sexual aggression- which can also take the form of lascivious and 'pervy' behaviour - making women feel unsafe. Often it is just the inherent or implied threat or possibility of force.....

anyway - I got the drift early on that you were here as a trans ally - someone who is happy to ride roughshod over women's feelings and needs, in order to priorities the needs and feelings of males who 'identify' as women.

Women require singles sex spaces and services for their own comfort., dignity and safety. If that is what a male who 'identifies' as a woman requires then they can campaign for their own spaces - in the exact same way that women have. Nobody would have any issue with that at all. Everyone has a right to the comfort and dignity afforded by their sex.

not just physical aggression, though

All the things you've listed are subjective and not societal. To say that women have been oppressed is a grave misrepresentation

Honestly! This is getting silly......." a grave misrepresentation"? What planet have you been living on?

I think you ought to give up - you are showing utter contempt for the struggles of generations of women; and for the struggles, still, today around the world of women oppressed and kept down purely on account of their sex class.

Busy thread! I work with teenagers and I think a few of you are hugely underestimating how TWAW has captured that age group and how anxious they get at the thought of anyone thinking them racist, homophobic, transphobic etc. He is a lovely person, but he’s young and I feel he’ll grasp it better in time.

My friend (in the original post), on the other hand, is almost 50 and when I recalled the young woman’s history later (a week after he’d told me about the wall-punching) I was baffled and disappointed that he couldn’t see why she’d call the cops (who did nothing as far as he was aware).

For my own experience (more so when young but it has stuck with me), I’m not scared 24/7 but I’ve been groped, hit (by exh), catcalled, called a bitch by men who were complete strangers, leered at, touched up by my creepy uncle, and shouted at aggressively in situations that I know my middle-aged 6”3, very broad shouldered friend has never had to suffer.

But in the way I feel protective of children and small animals because I can imagine their vulnerability, I think men should be able to make that mental leap to understand that, generally speaking, our smaller stature makes us vulnerable and that history has shown us we are right to be cautious.

*54000 rapes in the UK in 2018
40 lift cables snapped and injured/killed people since 1999.

Mega difference*

I agree!

Thank goodness we had charlie (who is a man) to mansplain to us its our responsibility to manage our own anxiety around this instead of you know....teaching men not to rape. All this time I thought it was the men who groped me or touched me or hassled me who were causing the problem but all along, it was me! If only I had managed my pesky anxiety better so that I wouldn't hurt other men's feelings (that oddly- they have no burden to manage). Thank goodness Ive realised now that talking about my traumatic experiences are hurting mens fee fees so much that I'm being a misandrist.

So grateful for charlie being here.......oh wait a second.....he's gone..

Well, Im not a man and just dropping by before cooking supper. But I have similar views to Charlie.

For the record, I think single sex spaces should exist and be protected for toilets, changing areas, prisons, hospital wards, etc. Although I’d never be in favour of women only train carriages or buses, etc. To me the single sex spaces are more about modesty and dignity.

It’s the public safety argument that I find to be very tenuous.

Women are at greater risk of rape, assault or murder in their own home from an intimate partner or male relative than any random strange man out in public.

This narrative of feeling especially afraid and vulnerable outside the home is not borne out by the reality of actual crime statistics. To me, the fear expressed on here too conveniently dovetails with the patriarchal mantra which has for centuries told women their place is in the home and don’t go outside because big bad men are out there just waiting to prey on you. Little Red Riding Hood and similar moralistic fairy tales tell girls this from a very early age.

We are socialised to be anxious and fearful outside our homes by the patriarchy. Not all barriers to equality are physical, some are insidious mental blocks placed there.

But I have similar views to Charlie

Did you see his vile comment about rape? before it was removed?

Because if so, i wouldnt be saying you think like him if you want any respect from anyone else

Plan I don't think you are similar to Charlie.

"It’s the public safety argument that I find to be very tenuous.

Women are at greater risk of rape, assault or murder in their own home from an intimate partner or male relative than any random strange man out in public."

---

yes, I find people are super concerned about me being a singleton, whereas I think that means I'm at less risk from violence by men - I think I have seen some stats on this years ago but can't be arsed to look for them.

You are seriously suggesting that you have never been the subject of unwanted sexual attention either as a child or as a woman. Or never felt at all anxious when walking alone to come across a large male, or several? Or has comments shouted at you across a street? Had your bottom slapped, or your breasts groped in a crowd......Never been exposed to a flasher, or a 'heavy breathing' phone call...so many circumstances...you really have never felt at all vulnerable down to your sex?

No. I have not. Do you have a problem believing what a woman says?

54000 rapes in the UK in 2018
Sorry 54000 reported rapes.
Obviously we all know that reported is not the complete figure.
Just for info roughly 860 will have got a succesful outcome in court.

No. I have not. Do you have a problem believing what a woman says

I am having a problem believing that as a female you have never encountered any of the above or more, yes.....definitely. You'd be the first I'd ever met or encountered, and I've been on this earth for quite a while.

I see. "We believe you" only if it suits what you want to hear.

I'm been on this earth 60 years. I'm a natal woman. The constant living in fear / curtailing what I should do scenario which I read on here bears no relation to my life.

Your question makes no sense - recognise what? That that is her experience? Of course I recognise that- it doesn't make it mine

The word 'recognition' means to understand something through familiarity: to re-know something; to be once more cognisant of something.

My feeling is that as human beings we can all recognise elements of each others' experiences - even if only only an emotional level. The pain, fear, sadness, joy someone is experiencing touches off something similar in ourselves: brings to mind situations in our own experience which recall that.

Have to say I just don't believe that you have got to the age of 60 ( which you say you are) and never experienced any level of physical or sexual threat from men while out in the world......

At your age you would have been around at the time of Peter Sutcliffe, for example, when women were being told to stay indoors and not go out at night. That's not to say that all women barricaded themselves in their homes in fear - but that the idea that women out alone at night may well be vulnerable was a widespread sentiment in the public at large. at that time. Police routinely used to offer such 'advice' to women......That's what the 'Reclaim the Night' marches were about.

The constant living in fear

For some reason you are being willfuly obtuse.....I'm not saying "living in constant fear".....and neither are most others...what they are saying is that such instinctive fear/threat responses become a normal experience for women - to the extent that they operate just below the level of consciousness....this makes women very alert to signs and signals of sexual threat and predation.

Most people don't walk along the street in day light feeling terrified.....but all the women and girls I've ever known have a sixth sense for a creep.

Just gonna plop the "bunbury rules here and go again til later 🤔

Just gonna plop the "bunbury rules here and go again til later

What are they? 🤔 Don't engage with posters that turn out to be obvious trolls, or who seem to have a particular agenda?

Sometimes it takes a while to reach that stage. You always want to give people the benefit of the doubt.

I've never been able to work out how to check someone's posting history. Can someone explain how you do this please?

No. I have not. Do you have a problem believing what a woman says?

I don't have trouble believing you because you are a woman but I do have trouble believing in experience so far removed from the vast majority of women. Honestly I am absolutely gobsmacked. I don't know a single woman who has never had at least one of these things happen at least once. In fact once a year would be surprisingly low for most women aged 12 to 30, let alone never in a lifetime!

I guess the nature of probability is that every bell curve has its far ends, or perhaps your lifestyle is or was in some way constrained such that you have had very little unsupervised contact with men. But of course that's (1) just speculation, and (2) not a refutation of your lived experience.

I hope you in turn will give us the courtesy of acknowledging that your experiences ARE unusual and do justify if not disbelief, then genuine surprise and curiosity.

Just gonna plop the "bunbury rules here and go again til later

Oh the blessed Germaine Bunbury- anyone not validating the consensus must be reported to Bunbury.

I've never been able to work out how to check someone's posting history. Can someone explain how you do this please?

Dead easy. Copy the username , click search, and fill in only the box for the username to search that username.

Don't bother though- I've been on MN for years- had loads of name changes.

I am not sure theh would tell you to be honest blibby. I have only vaguely referred to my experience on here not to anyone.in real life. I barely even acknowledge it to myself.

I hope you in turn will give us the courtesy of acknowledging that your experiences ARE unusual and do justify if not disbelief, then genuine surprise and curiosity

I have been accused of disbelieving women (not true) I have been accused of lying. I have now been reported to the famous Bunbury. No "genuine surprise and curiosity" there.