Can men really grasp women’s reality re safety?

[Ritascornershop]

I have a 19 year old son who is very compassionate and left-wing (I mention that as he’s been indoctrinated in TWAW) but who can’t grasp the discomfort many women feel at men in women’s private spaces.

And recently a friend was telling me that a family member of his (who he has quite the blind spot over) broke up with his girlfriend. The gf had, before she met his family member, been sexually assaulted. She was naturally quite traumatized by the rape but trying to heal and met this guy and got in a relationship with him. The way my friend tells it. his family member broke up with her after a few months (during an argument) & family member “got so uoset” he punched a hole in the wall and broke a chair. She called the police and called friends. My friend seemed to feel she over-reacted! I think any woman would be frightened and that a woman who’d been sexually assaulted would be particularly terrified.

It does not seem a tricky concept to me, but both these men seem to not be able to wrap their heads around how frightening it can be to be vulnerable around larger, stronger, angry males. Is this something most men don’t get or are these two not trying very hard?

Posters are misusing statistics here. It is pointless to look at overall figures, unless you take into account the base rates. So, to compare males vs females being assaulted, you have to start by knowing the number of person-hours males spend in situations where they are at higher risk of assault vs females ditto. Obviously if substantially fewer females are out alone on the streets after dark than males, it is unsurprising that there are substantially fewer assaults on females. That says nothing, however about the likelihood of assault on those females who are out on the street.

People can see this clearly in other situations: for example, Sunday drivers who only take the car out for a sedate spin once a week are likely to have fewer accidents than travelling salesmen, purely because they spend so many fewer hours on the road.

If the issue is a feeling of fear in lonely public places, then you shouldn't just think about assaults that are serious crimes. OK, it may be true that men are more likely to be murdered by a stranger. But the range of unpleasant things that a man should worry about isn't all that great, whereas for a woman, some man could inflict any level of bullying and intimidation, and it's far more common than rape or murder, in fact it's a routine occurrence. But the intimidation is backed up by the fear of violence, a woman's knowledge that if a man chose to attack her, she couldn't stop him. I think we should be considering the psychological side of fear, as well as the risks of physical harm.

Well, Im not a man..

More anecdotal stuff?

This narrative of feeling especially afraid and vulnerable outside the home is not borne out by the reality of actual crime statistics.

I would very much doubt that there are many stats for low level, every day sexual assaults because women don’t report most of what they experience. Specially if said woman is still a child.

I’m sure I’m not unique in not reporting the groping, boys trying to lift my skirt, laughing as they chased me with their dicks out, the friends dad who tried to kiss me while he pinned me against a wall.
All of above happened before I was 14. My friends dad was my next door neighbour and the boys were at school with me.
I’d already reported (to school) the boy who followed and beat me on a daily basis because I wouldn’t go out with him. I was believed but it was me who had to change my behaviour ie stay later at school and not go out at night. (It didn’t stop him - going to Borstal stopped him).
So what would be the point of reporting the other ‘lesser’ attacks if getting beaten every day didn’t warrant a male person getting punished.

Blokes just generally don't think about how much space they take up in the world, physically with their bodies or with their behaviour. It's why we get manspreading and mansplaining and men thinking women dominated the conversation if the woman talked for 30% (ish, can't remember the exact figure) of the time.

My dh, a good guy, 6'3. Nearing 40. He is still just coming to grips with his size, and how bloody intimidating he can be. The big, deep voice doesn't help. He had a recent experience when alone in a supermarket (he does all the grocery shopping) where a young boy was mucking around and bumped into him. Dh wasn't at all bothered, smiled, he knows what kids are like. The kid's dad was a smaller man than dh, he was scared, apologised profusely. Dh came home and said "am I really that big and scary looking?" Yes dear, you are. I watched people the next time we were out together, even men dodge him! He doesn't even realise how the world clears a path for him, he doesn't know any different...

I've been round and round with him on this conversation and I've come to the conclusion that it's not a lack of logic or understanding. They get it, but there's an emotional reaction about being grouped with monsters, he says it alienates the allies and makes us more vulnerable. I ask him how I'm supposed to know the difference between the allies and the monsters before it's to late, they don't wear labels. Crickets. He gets it, he just doesn't like it.

I won’t have tradesmen in unless my son is home. I guess I’ll have to get over that when he moves out

What do you think is going to happen? I can't imagine living my life like that.

If a woman walks through a subway tunnel in a quiet area, she will look over her shoulder a few times on the way in. Men don’t do this.

Of course they do - subways are dodgy as heck.

If a woman walks through a subway tunnel in a quiet area, she will look over her shoulder a few times on the way in. Men don’t do this

Of course they do - subways are dodgy as heck

By subway do you mean a street underpass? If so- then of course they do. I wouldn't use one of those late at night and neither would my husband. I'm happy to walk home in the dark but there are obvious risks which men avoid too.

I won’t have tradesmen in unless my son is home. I guess I’ll have to get over that when he moves out

What do you think is going to happen? I can't imagine living my life like that.

I'm not afraid to have a tradesman in the house, but it does make me feel uncomfortable in a way that I can quite put my finger on. Maybe I just feel more socially awkward with a man or something. It's easier to have a strange woman in the house because I can be fairly certain that I can make polite conversation with her without her thinking that I'm flirting. I did have a neighbour quite recently who employed a plumber who when it came to the bill said he'd be happy to do waive the payment in exchange for sex. So that has made me more wary than I previously would have been.

That last post was really badly written, with autocorrect mistakes etc. Sorry.

“I think if it's a common problem it's most likely due to the women affected being raised without a strong male role model in their household.” What a load of rot!

Unless that “strong male role model” is accompanying you everywhere what difference does that make?!

In addition many like myself that’s been the first man that WAS a threat to our safety.

“It's probably one of a huge number of problems that a rise in single parenthood is responsible for.” Odfod!

“the chances of being attacked while just innocently walking along are about the equivalent of winning the lottery, it's almost certainly not going to happen.” Again I’d love to see your stats on this

The Uk may be safER than many other countries - doesn’t mean it’s SAFE

And my mh issues are at least partly BECAUSE of my experiences with men being predators, not my mh making them so!!

“I think the vast majority women and girls have had such experiences if they honest with themselves” I agree. I’ve had real life discussions with other girls and women and on here too and ones who’ve claimed to NEVER have been harassed/assaulted when asked ‘so you’ve NEVER Been treated badly at work, had your bra strap “snapped” at school, wolf whistled, cat called, groped, grabbed, kissed without any preamble etc ever?’ Well I’ve yet to come across one who genuinely has never experienced any of that!

“It's not for anyone else to change the way they act” you really don’t think men as a class need to stop with all the derogatory, dismissive, “jokey” crap they regularly say? Stop behaving in ways that can be intimidating to women?

And I KNOW you’re going to say “I said inappropriate behaviour” but the fact is until the “low level” bad behaviour is addressed we’ll get nowhere dealing with the worse behaviour

“where they instinctively fear men for no good reason.” How Exactly is it for no good reason?!

2 women killed a week

1 in 4 women will experience dv and 1 in 5 sexual assault

And that’s this govts own stats BUT still only includes those incidents which are reported officially to police - which we KNOW the vast majority are not!

And we are nowhere NEAR true equality yet in education, healthcare, employment, housing, recreation...

“No women don't just have equality on paper, they have it in LAW” it’s not enforced much of the time though. Loopholes are exploited (eg slightly different job titles for the same job to justify paying men more, claiming other applicants had better cv’s to justify denying a job to a woman of child bearing age...)

“advances from men” please dispense with the minimising language! If it’s unwanted and uninvited it’s sexual harassment at least sexual assault at worst

“Instilling self confidence in girls and women from an early age would help greatly if this is a wider issue.” Wow! Shocking piece of victim blaming nonsense!

“The majority of men are capable of behaving perfectly well and it's not evident that men, any more than women, need to regulate their behaviour” on the contrary - statistically we know a lot of men are not behaving as well as they should.

'”men' don't need to manage their behaviour better. That's mysandry to claim that” fact is not prejudice!

“Men are more frequently the victims of violent crime because they are more likely to involve themselves criminal activities and associate with other violent men. Men are absolutely not more often the victims of violent assault by someone whilst minding their own business and being lawful.” That’s really interesting if true are there stats on this?

“Just looking at recent U.K. news stories” just that fact - that it’s rare enough to be a news story when TWO WOMEN DYING A WEEK generally ISN’T shows that it’s far less of an issue for men.

“54000 rapes in the UK in 2018” and I strongly suspect its a case of 54000 REPORTED rapes - many rapes aren’t reported. Think I saw same poster ‘correcting’ this as I’ve noted?

“I am having a problem believing that as a female you have never encountered any of the above or more, yes.....definitely. You'd be the first I'd ever met or encountered, and I've been on this earth for quite a while.” Ditto - to the point it makes me wonder if that poster is really a woman

“Drink driving was reduced mostly by making it socially unacceptable but we just don't seem to be able to do that with male violence” .l totally agree. On a similar discussion on here a poster claiming to be male argued with me that it was unreasonable to expect the decent men to challenge the not decent men when they made derogatory comments or “rape jokes” he was taking it to the level of it would put the challenger at risk of physical harm! Ridiculous and really just excuses!

I’m 47, I’ve been dealing with this shit since I was 9, from men supposed to love me and protect me to complete strangers. I can count on 1 hand the men I’ve ever met/know who as well as being decent in their own behaviour ALSO challenge men who aren’t. It’s pathetic.

Want to REALLY be a decent man? Address the behaviour of the other men around you who perpetuate and create rape culture, who are dismissive of and minimise the effects on women and girls, who scoff at yet another murderer getting off because of “rough sex gone bad” who disbelieve victims...

You’re not really a decent man in my book unless you do this.

I leave my front door wide open when I’ve a tradesman in I live in a flat it’s so I can call for help from a neighbour if need be. I’ve also avoided as far as possible for the last 17 years tradesmen being in when dd home.

I started doing this after a guy who was in my home to do my (mandatory legal requirement) gas safety check bombarded me soon after he left my home with completely uninvited very sexual which then turned aggressive texts when I rejected him. He knew I was a single mum and of course where i lived which at that time was a semi detached property in a fairly rural area. I reported him - and was literally laughed at and told I should take it as a compliment! I made it clear he was never to come to my door again. My neighbour (a lovely chap but big and imposing physically) when I mentioned to his wife said he was happy to be present for future checks and to bang on the party wall or call his name if I had any future trouble. The following year I arranged for neighbour to be with me for the safety check and the landlord/gas company sent a different guy (after almost imposing the same one on me again!)

So yes - some of us have damn good reasons for actions like this! And that also means these men are a risk to other women too and too often we don’t know until it’s too late.

Telling women that their structural fear of male violence is all in their heads is gaslighting and misogynist. hear hear!

I wouldn't use one of those late at night and neither would my husband.

Last time I used one, I didn't have a choice. The road above it had been taken up and there were workers laying hot tarmac (yes, at night, it was a major road) between me and my home. When I saw a guy waiting at the far end, I was terrified and froze. All I'm thinking is that the road layers won't hear me scream over their loud machinery. Turned out he was waiting for his mate who was watering a lamp post. No harm done, but had he been a rapist I would have been a sitting duck. Point is, there isn't always a choice for the woman. The driver of the taxi I'd been in had already abandoned the rest of the journey to my house when we'd reached to roadworks, stating that he didn't know how to detour. I was on my own.

There's always a choice for the man, unless someone is forcing him to rape at gun point or something, which I suspect is confined to horror films.

I understand what Ariadne and Memorial are saying about not having experienced groping, catcalling, heavy breathing, flashing, etc. I would put myself in a similar bracket. I had my bottom touched a few times by a particular lad at school, but in the decades since I can recall only one other case. And none of the other stuff.

But I can recognise I am fortunate to have that history especially as I did stupid things like walk home on my own at 2am. And I acknowledge that many, probably most, other women have not had the same experience.

And I have had moments of fear. I have held my car keys between my fingers, feeling edgy and nervous as I hastened to my car in an empty carpark. I have felt a twist of anxiety when a man started walking close behind me on a dark street. I have made sure that any meetings with strange men have been in public places. I wouldn't go hiking by myself off the beaten track. None of this has been all consuming, but it has impacted my life at times, and probably more than I realise.

*I won’t have tradesmen in unless my son is home. I guess I’ll have to get over that when he moves out(

What do you think is going to happen?

Here's 3 from 2019;
metro.co.uk/2014/11/29/nob-the-builder-couple-feel-violated-after-builder-masturbates-and-lifts-weights-in-their-living-room-4965087/

www.thesun.co.uk/news/9620374/pervy-blind-flitter-performs-sex-act-after-going-through-womans-knicker-drawer-but-cops-cant-arrest-him/

www.thesun.co.uk/news/8692638/plumber-pleasuring-himself-on-the-job/

I think the only males that truly get it are the ones(particularly young)living on the streets, doing sex work.

Because they're just as cheap and disposable as women in society's/men's eyes.

I think the difference for me is I don’t know any men who have that subconscious jolt of fear upon walking into a room and realising there are only men in there.

My particular struggle was learning to drive. Locked in a confined space with a man in a high pressure situation. Ended up finding a female driving instructor and have spoken to quite a few women (and one man) who had a similar experience.

what do you think is going to happen

Hopefully nothing but the point is if they decide something is going to happen, it’s going to be an unfair fight in stopping it.

Of course there is a risk but it is far smaller than the risk of being in a car accident and yet we all still get in cars

I've only been in a car accident once.
However...

Something happened with my cousin, I can't tell you exactly what as I was really young and I only get flashbacks/ smells sometimes.

My grandfather pinned me in a corner and sexually assaulted me.

6 of my classmates tried to rape me.

That's before I was 15.

An ex of a friend put a blade to my face to make me go with him. He didn't have much conviction so I pulled myself out and ran in the road in front of cars screaming. He left me alone after that as I was "crazy and psycho".

Two blokes I only knew by sight dragged me in the woods behind a stadium. I was having a walked with my so called friends who promptly fucked off. I blagged my way out of that one with promises of a comfy bed , willing participant and being home alone the next day, rather than in the bushes amongst needles and used condoms.

My maths tutor sexually assaulted me in his own house, with his wife and son in another room. Even more mind boggling there were 3 other girls at the table. I didn't say a word,I didn't move a muscle. I even went again doe one more session thinking I imagined it all. He did it again.

All that before I was 18.

I had men trying to have sex with me or have a "relationship" with me. I was 13/14/15 the youngest was 21 the oldest 33.

And that's without the random cat calling, horn honking, being grabbed, being rubbed against in clubs or public transport and so on.

I don't live my life in a cloud of fear or locked in my house(fuck knows how) but I'm not so stupid as to ignore the risks and possibilities. I also don't give a shit about NAMALT. I can't afford to.

So kindly do fuck off with your whataboutery risk assessments. I jumped in front of a car before to escape an assault. I'll take a car accident anytime before feeling again like I was made to feel.

Well I'm still not going to panic about tradesman. It never occurred to me to worry about my driving instructor.

I'll have to name change again now. Fucking rants in the middle of the night.

I don't care what the gaslighters on this thread are saying:

I have to look out for my own safety, because I am a woman. And very careful for my children against predators - because I'm their mam The amount of men, when my children were small, that I placed myself between them as a wall, to just block those men off and away from my children.

Women and girls need their own single-sex spaces, and child safeguarding is being totally undermined by the current trans lobby.

Men are trying to dictate to us. Again.

Ariadne, seriously! Wtf do you think I think might happen? It’s not unheard of for a man to realize a woman lives alone and comes back to assault her. I find it difficult to believe that you think this doesn’t happen & isn’t a concern for some women.

I can’t count the number of times men have called from passing cars, from building sites, passing me on the street, saying “I want to fuck you”. That is impactful, it makes me view them (as a class) with caution.

I had a teacher stand in a doorway and refuse to let me leave the class before he said “you know what’s good exercise Rita? Sex is good exercise.” I was 13 and very naive and very shy.

Rita do you have a difficulty understanding not everyone has the same life as you?

Ariadne, God you’re rude. I have difficultly believing that you have so little imagination you think that most women, having experienced many threatening experiences, do not view men with caution. That you have to ask, supposedly seriously, what concern I might have about having a man I don’t know in my house.

I have difficultly believing that you have so little imagination ... you have to ask, supposedly seriously, what concern I might have about having a man I don’t know in my house

Well believe it. I asked , seriously, what you thought was going to happen. It has never occurred to me to be nervous about having a tradesman in the house. Not once.