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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

A Gentleman In The Ladies

28 replies

WomanBornNotWorn · 02/01/2020 00:28

How I carefully discuss just why I do not want mixed sex loos, even if they are intended to make trans people feel comfortable, and why third space is the answer:

Trans women in men's loos can make some men feel uncomfortable.

Some of those men may then react to feeling uncomfortable with agressive behaviour towards trans women.

Trans women can then feel uncomfortable in their own (men's) loos.

To feel comfortable, they might then start using women's loos.

We KNOW if a person is male or female.

We know some members of the male sex are at their most comfortable making women and girls feel uncomfortable.

We do know that some members of the male sex have paraphilias or sexual kinks (far more common in males than females). They may have cophrophilia, urolagia, menophilia or voyeurism plus a neat little camera just waiting to be set up.

And we KNOW most sexual assaults are committed in mixed sex spaces by members of the male sex against members of the female sex.

But trans or not, we DON'T know if a clearly male stranger is a sweet lovely person or a danger, especially if we don't know them.

Which all makes us feel … uncomfortable.

But unlike men, including trans women, women don't have anywhere else we can go.

Some women might just not care, but their confidence isn't shared by all and must not be imposed on us all.

So our options?

We might leave and boycott the space, with health implications like we're seeing in schoolgirls who aren't drinking enough water or going when they need to.

Or we might go ahead and keep heads down, hoping nothing will happen, unable to relax in our own private space when at our most vulnerable.

Or some might even act agressively towards the trans woman.

Fight, flight, freeze, flock, etc in action.

To me, the clear solution is one larger space with disposal bins for women, one smaller space with urinals for men, and a third mixed sex space with both. And ideally a disabled people's cubicle, and changing facilities, in each of the three. I think that's everyone catered for!

Yes, that costs - but how much has been spent converting / installing mixed loos over the last few years? Old Vic, I see you.

(these conversations can go on for a while …)

OP posts:
Fieldofgreycorn · 02/01/2020 00:36

Is this a “trans women are men” post?

Lifeinthelastlane · 02/01/2020 00:39

Why does a man who wants a poo (or privacy) have to use a mixed sex room?

OccasionalKite · 02/01/2020 00:43

My goodness!

Fieldofgreycorn, are you implying that transwomen are, somehow, not women???!!

WomanBornNotWorn · 02/01/2020 00:45

It's a 'trans women are members of the male sex and therefore do not belong in the ladies, and of course have to go somewhere but men may make that difficult - hence the third space bit' post.

OP posts:
JesusMaryAndJosepheen · 02/01/2020 00:48

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

WomanBornNotWorn · 02/01/2020 00:50

Absolutely - part of this mess is mens behaviour to each other, and women shouldn't be expected to bear the results of it or be the meek solution.

OP posts:
JesusMaryAndJosepheen · 02/01/2020 00:53

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

Fieldofgreycorn · 02/01/2020 00:55

Or is it in a “But unlike men, including trans women..” post?

WomanBornNotWorn · 02/01/2020 01:06

A historical note - women's loos didn't use to exist at all. Then they did - and the sky didn't fall in. Maybe third space will seem just as normal as the ladies' in future.

OP posts:
AmericanAdventure · 02/01/2020 01:14

They should at least remove their monacle, doff their hat and say "excuse me madam".

JesusMaryAndJosepheen · 02/01/2020 01:14

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

JesusMaryAndJosepheen · 02/01/2020 01:16

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

DancelikeEmmaGoldman · 02/01/2020 04:06

About now I don’t care if it’s a third space or a worm hole into a parallel universe, not our problem to solve; just our boundary to police.

ElluesPichulobu · 02/01/2020 06:18

a third space is totally pointless because it would only be used by the people who care about the feelings of other people and don't want to cause anyone anxiety or upset and they are probably the least likely to be a danger.

the setup you describe would not work as there is still a separate section for women and that is exactly where some men would want to be, in preference to the unisex area.

the push for 'use whatever room you feel most comfortable' policy comes from those who get validation or a sexual thrill from being in a Ladies Only space. there is no policy possible that can fulfill the desires of such people and also grant women and children privacy and dignity.

women only areas can only exist if there is a strong taboo against any male even thinking about wanting to be in there. that taboo used to exist but has now been broken and I don't think it can be replaced.

wrongsideofhistorymyarse · 02/01/2020 07:44

Nope. I don't want to share toilet facilities with males, no matter how uncomfortable they feel in the gents.

My privacy and dignity isn't theirs to take.

SidJS · 02/01/2020 08:04

It’s up to men to sort this out not women.

Single sex toilets ensure the safety, privacy and dignity of women and girls and most do not feel comfortable / safe sharing with men - that is why we have them in the first place. Why should this be compromised??!! You have no right to take this away.

Any man - irrespective of how they identify or how how easily (or not) they pass as a women - if they use female toilets, clearly fully disregard the needs and rights of women and girls. That in itself means they should never enter these spaces.

The type of man I am most comfortable are those - the majority - who wouldn’t dream of using female facilities.

happydappy2 · 02/01/2020 08:05

Little girls should not have to share public bathrooms with teenage boys or adult men, ever. Single sex provision for females must be protected & anyone looking to dismantle that is a red flag.

Sexequality · 02/01/2020 08:13

They are not in the ladies because they are uncomfortable in the gents.

ClairesKimono · 02/01/2020 08:58

The type of man I am most comfortable are those - the majority - who wouldn’t dream of using female facilities.

Yep. Any man that does want to invade women's loos is precisely the type of man that should never be allowed to. This needs to be brought home to people time and time again.

HorsWithNoDoeuvres · 02/01/2020 09:36

Is this a “trans women are men” post?

Is this a "women don't matter" post?

ClairesKimono · 02/01/2020 09:38

They are not in the ladies because they are uncomfortable in the gents.

They have been using gents loos for years. Hmm

wrongsideofhistorymyarse · 02/01/2020 09:47

It's not up to women to sort this out.

Women had to fight damn hard to get single-sex toilets and while the sky didn't 'fall in' Hmm without them, the lack had huge effects on the lives of women.

www.historic-uk.com/CultureUK/History-of-Womens-Public-Toilets-in-Britain/

www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-41999792

MangoesAreMyFavourite · 02/01/2020 10:36

It's like primary school - to separate 2 boys who fight, one gets put next to a girl.
She is therapist, companion, peacemaker on demand. And fuck her own needs.

ClairesKimono · 02/01/2020 10:38

Yep. I used to see this all the time in teaching. And most teachers never saw what was wrong with it even after it was pointed out.

triggsey · 02/01/2020 11:56

I suppose I would feel differently if anyone had ever shared an instance of a trans woman being assaulted in the men’s room. As far as I can tell, they have not been. Gay men have, but I haven’t heard of a trans woman. And if there have been any, I’d need to know if they were really just minding their own business, or if they were actually cruising.

From my POV this is an argument about an imagined situation - trans women being assaulted by men in the men’s room - vs a documented factual situation, where trans women have assaulted women and female children in the women’s. Which is frustrating for obvious reasons.

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