Saudi Arabia and similar societies

[isabellerossignol]

I was thinking about this. I know that I have read that in some very conservative countries (Iran perhaps?) it is fairly common for men to identify as woman because it is illegal to be gay. I'm sure it's not quite as simple as that, but that's the gist of it.

But what about the countries such as Afghanistan or Saudi Arabia where being a woman limits your freedom to the extent of not even being able to leave your house without an escort? Leaving aside the fact that they almost certainly wouldn't actually 'live as a woman' in such a society, I'd be really interested to know if there are any men in these societies who have ever felt that deep down they were meant to be born female. And if transgenderism only occurs in some societies but not others, would that not disprove the idea that it is innate and not a social construct?

I hope that made sense, I know in my head what I'm thinking but it's hard to explain.

There are transgender women in Saudi Arabia. It's obviously not as open as in Western countries, but they are there and they portray themselves as women amongst others like them. HTH.

It's obviously not as open as in Western countries

You can’t make a clear cut distinction between east and west on this issue.

Trans women played in the Iranian women’s football team long before women were allowed to attend football matches.

Changes of sex are recognised but homosexuality is still illegal.

Changes of sex are recognised but homosexuality is still illegal.

Sex changes are recognized in Iran and the UAE as long as they can back it up with medical proof i.e. intersex, xxy, etc. It's not something simple to prove and you can't just go to the US, get a sex change and go back, you will be jailed for homosexuality.

Dressing as the opposite sex is illegal in Saudi Arabia. As is homosexuality.

Do trans women who haven't undergone a 'sex change' have to be escorted by a man when in public in Saudi Arabia, does anyone know?

Also (sorry to hijack your thread OP but it's something I've wanted to know and it doesn't warrant its own thread) in Thailand and the like, 'ladyboy' seems pretty much accepted as a lifestyle. But what I've always wondered was, is there any stigma there? I've heard lots of crude, immature jokes and comments from the West about ladyboys but I wondered whether they are seen mostly as sex workers or whether a man could marry or be in a relationship with a ladyboy and there would be no or hardly any stigma? (MNHQ I'm not trying to be offensive with 'ladyboy', this is just the term I am familiar with when describing those in Thailand).

Never mind my first question, hulks has answered it in the long time it took me to write out my questions

www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-29832690

www.google.co.uk/amp/s/amp.economist.com/middle-east-and-africa/2019/04/04/why-iran-is-a-hub-for-sex-reassignment-surgery

According to these articles clerics accept the idea that somebody can be born in the wrong body - they aren’t just recording a different sex for somebody born with a DSD.

Do trans women who haven't undergone a 'sex change' have to be escorted by a man when in public in Saudi Arabia, does anyone know?

Presumably if they haven't undergone a 'sex change' they would be considered to be cross dressing rather than having changed sex, and that would be illegal? Basing that on the answer a previous poster gave.

I'd be interested to know if a man had surgery to 'become' a woman, would he then have to have a male escort?

Never mind my first question, hulks has answered it in the long time it took me to write out my questions

And I did the same, as I typed my post before seeing that you had posted this

It must be shit being a woman in some of these countries mentioned. You'd expect, therefore, loads of women there would transition simply to "identify out of " their oppression. Does that happen, and if so how effective is it?

Or is it just a one way street?

Sorry if this question is seen as derailment but I had to ask..

www.buzzfeednews.com/article/lesterfeder/why-irans-mullahs-bless-sex-reassignment

Long article on being trans in Iran.

Basically it’s a very long and expensive process, so while theoretically supported by theology, completely impossible for most people.

in Thailand and the like, 'ladyboy' seems pretty much accepted as a lifestyle. But what I've always wondered was, is there any stigma there?
Thailand is the most buddhist country in the world. Tolerance and acceptance are highly valued. Publicly showing negative emotions is looked down upon. This means that 'ladyboys' - katoey in Thai - are publicly accepted.

However, many Thais - especially men - have little respect for katoey. Most men habitually ignore them and interact only when they need to. In public most Thais will just say katoey are part of Thai culture, in private they are more likely to tell you they don't really get on with them.
Thai women are sometimes friendly with katoey, similar to the 'gay best friend' thing from some western women, and katoey are often employed in hairdressers or beauty parlours.
I don't know which loos katoey use, but Thailand is very conservative so I'd imagine that 'ladyboys' usually use the men's when unisex toilets are available.

So, a short answer: Yes, there is stigma, but Thai people are polite and wold usually say nothing in public.

And I did the same, as I typed my post before seeing that you had posted this isabelle

^ that was my own grin at your comment btw, not me just plainly quoting your own post back to you.

@isabellerossignol thanks for that, very interesting

*You'd expect, therefore, loads of women there would transition simply to "identify out of " their oppression. Does that happen, and if so how effective is it?

Or is it just a one way street?*

You get a few transmen, I don't think there's a vast difference in the amount. It's all very behind closed doors, so if you haven't been invited behind those doors, you won't really see it.

*You'd expect, therefore, loads of women there would transition simply to "identify out of " their oppression. Does that happen, and if so how effective is it?

Or is it just a one way street?*

Also, the majority of women wouldn't see themselves as oppressed.

Also, the majority of women wouldn't see themselves as oppressed.

I'm never sure how much I believe that. I was brought up in a very conservative evangelical upbringing in N Ireland. Right now, with the abortion issue so prevalent, politicians and church leaders are declaring that women here don't feel that they have fewer rights than men, that women are horrified by the idea that others see them as oppressed. But no one has ever asked me for my opinion on that. Or my friends for their opinions. They have decided for themselves what our opinions are and declared it as fact.

Transgenderism is completely banned in Saudi Arabia. It is a totally different situation to the one in Iran.

You cant really prove it is a social construct by asking if men in these countries if they feel deep down a woman. The consequences of admitting this would be too severe that they may repress any such feelings into subconscious more that western cultures who are more open to expression.

Also, the majority of women wouldn't see themselves as oppressed.

How would you know? Women are jailed for campaigning against car driving rules and hijab.

Either way transition would not be an option for most people, whatever the motivation.

You cant really prove it is a social construct by asking if men in these countries if they feel deep down a woman. The consequences of admitting this would be too severe that they may repress any such feelings into subconscious more that western cultures who are more open to expression.

Yes, I realised that after I posted. I suppose what I would really love to know would be if it were possible to ask the question, entirely anonymously, with absolute confidentiality, would you find the same percentage of the population answering 'yes, I believe I am a woman' in every society worldwide.

In counties where it is forbidden to cross dress, I can see that a man in a dress and makeup would be deemed to be doing this but how does it work the other way round? Is a woman wearing trousers dressing as a man, or something more? I would have thought it's a lot more difficult to accuse a woman of cross-dressing

I would have thought it's a lot more difficult to accuse a woman of cross-dressing

Much easier in a country where a woman can face a prison sentence for posting a Instagram picture of her uncovered head.

(Although tge crime there wouldn’t be cross dressing, it would be something like encouraging prostitution)