Saudi Arabia and similar societies

[isabellerossignol]

I was thinking about this. I know that I have read that in some very conservative countries (Iran perhaps?) it is fairly common for men to identify as woman because it is illegal to be gay. I'm sure it's not quite as simple as that, but that's the gist of it.

But what about the countries such as Afghanistan or Saudi Arabia where being a woman limits your freedom to the extent of not even being able to leave your house without an escort? Leaving aside the fact that they almost certainly wouldn't actually 'live as a woman' in such a society, I'd be really interested to know if there are any men in these societies who have ever felt that deep down they were meant to be born female. And if transgenderism only occurs in some societies but not others, would that not disprove the idea that it is innate and not a social construct?

I hope that made sense, I know in my head what I'm thinking but it's hard to explain.

But no one has ever asked me for my opinion on that. Or my friends for their opinions. They have decided for themselves what our opinions are and declared it as fact.

I've asked my Arab female friends, I've interviewed local women on their thoughts about it. Khaleeji women are VERY opinionated on the subject. While they don't agree with all the laws, especially the now overturned driving ban, they love their culture and don't consider themselves oppressed.

Also the majority of women wouldn't see themselves as being oppressed

That is shockingly ignorant. and bordering on racist

Take a read of what it's like to be a feminist in Saudi www.theguardian.com/global-development/2019/may/24/what-they-did-to-me-was-so-horrific-brutal-silencing-of-a-saudi-feminist-loujain-al-hathloul and get back to us if you think it might just explain why there isn't much of a public movement

Read up about how women in Afghanistan felt about losing their rights

That is shockingly ignorant.shock and bordering on racist

My experience is based on conversations with actual Khaleeji women. Saudi is universally condemned as oppressive by everyone, even Saudi's. The biggest thing I got was that the women hate white Western women calling them oppressed.

I wouldn't want to live there. Maybe if you've lived your whole life under a repressive regime you get used to it? Cognitive dissonance? If it's as repressive as we think it is then maybe people are frightened to speak up in case of reprisals?

Being trans has always traditionally been more acceptable than being gay in countries from the Middle East to Asia but that doesn’t mean it’s accepted. Even in India where trans women have legal recognition and rights.

The biggest thing I got was that the women hate white Western women calling them oppressed.

Nobody likes to be described as oppressed, but if you can’t leave the country without your husband’s permission, what is that?

Maybe they are offended because they think western women claim to have cracked the equality code, when we so clearly haven’t.

Let’s also not forget that many women in the U.K. and America would emphatically not call themselves feminists.

I saw the play Adam, about an Egyptian trans man who travels to Glasgow as a refugee, a few years ago. It was incredibly powerful.

Thank-you Merrymouse the two statements do not have the same meaning.

Khaleeji covers several countries with different experiences for native women between some of these countries not to mention very different experiences for immigrant women who work in these countries

Nobody likes to be described as oppressed, but if you can’t leave the country without your husband’s permission, what is that?

I absolutely agree. But, I've heard many excuses, from women, about why this is ok. Again, I didn't say these women weren't oppressed, i'm saying they don't view themselves as oppressed. So to say they may try to become men to escape oppression is a leap.

Khaleeji covers several countries with different experiences for native women between some of these countries not to mention very different experiences for immigrant women who work in these countries

It does indeed. Gulf Arabs specifically. All of which, who I have met, Saudi Nationals included, think Saudi is fucked up. Oppressive. Behind. Antiquated. Until recently. There's Hope now (kashoggi not withstanding)

It isn’t white Western women who are mainly describing Saudi women as oppressed though.

It’s the United Nations, because those women are being denied their rights.

I have to echo what has been said, that the women who we might think lived oppressed lives don't see it that way. I couldn't quite get my head around it, but at least one woman thinks it's an expression of respect for them as women and also an element of protection.

It’s the United Nations, because those women are being denied their rights.

And the United Nations us predominantly.....

The UN is not predominantly white or female.

It’s exactly the same as women here thinking it’s great to take their husbands surname or that men are just naturally bad at housework. When you’re in the system you don’t see where the oppression lies. We all feel like we have free will.

There’s a distinction though by being oppressed by wider societal norms and being oppressed by the state.

If someone says they think they (or even women more generally) think would should take a man’s name or travel only with his consent, that’s a very different situation to the state enforcing that on women.

There are plenty of people, both male and female, in the U.K. who will say that women shouldn’t travel alone, but the law isn’t backing them up on that.

You'd expect, therefore, loads of women there would transition simply to "identify out of " their oppression. Does that happen, and if so how effective is it?

Bacha poshh*

A bacha posh is a daughter transed until puberty to help her family when there are no sons.

So not identifying out of oppression, but because of oppression. Not identifying from an inner need or belief, but because of someone else's societally-imposed need, a societal belief.

Let’s also not forget that many women in the U.K. and America would emphatically not call themselves feminists.

True dat - never ceases to amaze me.

Cross-dressing in Saudi was a significant issue. Not because of the trans issue, but because it was one of the only ways that young men could enter family/female spaces in order to bluetooth/flirt with girls.

The problem became so pronounced that cafes and restaurants began to police family spaces by asking individuals wearing niqabs to lift them in order to prove the person underneath was indeed female.

Of course, these cases were young men desperate to contact young women in a highly segregated society, but it does go towards illuminating a certain truth I reckon: that men will always find a way to try and access females, even if that means dressing as a female and risking the wrath of the religious police. I don't know what the situation is like now with the reforms.

Again, in MIL's country (Middle East), there were concerns for years that there was a male sex offender who used the niqab to enter ladies toilets and spy. So such concerns are not just a western construct.

I know this was not what you were asking, op. But your post reminded me of it.

Nobody likes to be described as oppressed, but if you can’t leave the country without your husband’s permission, what is that?

This.

'Cross-dressing' as protective camouflage. Though no doubt the Taliban would have considered it perverse and offensive.

John Simpson and cameraman Peter Jouvenal in Afghanistan.