Gender critical autistics / aspies

[NonnyMouse1337]

As someone on the autistic spectrum / with Asperger's - since I've learned more about trans ideology and read people's experiences, I've become quite worried at the disproportionately high numbers of autistic adults and children that are prone to getting involved in this mindset.

Since autistic people have difficulty picking up on unspoken social norms and socialisation, they are probably less inclined to follow gendered stereotypes or behave in gendered ways that are 'expected' by others. That's pretty awesome on one hand because it can show others how to be yourself and break moulds etc.
On the flip side, it does make you vulnerable since you will have an acute sense of being out of place, not fitting in, find it harder to make friends (especially of the same sex because of the lopsided socialisation) and so on. If you are undiagnosed, this adds another layer of being painfully aware that you are different, but not knowing why.

This vulnerability makes some autistic individuals especially susceptible to transgender ideology. Such a rigid ideology needs to rely on sexist stereotypes and gendered straitjackets to perpetuate itself in society.

It's understandable that autistic children and young adults will feel displaced from their social groups because they are 'not like other girls / boys'. When they discover transgender propaganda online or through their peers which claims that this must mean they actually are a boy or a girl, they might then seize on this simplistic answer as evidence of why they are the way they are and that transitioning will be the solution to all of their personal problems and feelings of social isolation.

Add in other issues like discomfort with one's body, sensory problems with clothing, trauma, bullying, grappling with sexuality, sexual/physical/mental abuse, mental health issues and so on, and it's no surprise that many young autistic people, especially autistic girls, are flocking to an ideology that claims to have all of the answers.

How can we provide a better narrative for the younger generations?

I'm not yet sure.

I suppose a start would be if any women here who are on the autism spectrum would be willing to share some of their experiences growing up; or reasons for why and how they ended up gender critical; or how they reconciled the fact of being a woman with any feelings of disconnection from the socialisation that comes with being female; or how they relate to other women (or not); or how do they cope with the pressure to conform to gendered expectations and so on.

Ultimately, the message I want to get across to autistic girls and women (or anyone who is gender non-conforming, really), is that it's ok to feel conflicted, confused, annoyed or dissatisfied with the gendered ideas and expectations around womanhood, while still accepting the (sometimes harsh) reality that you are a girl / woman and that this won't change, even if you use different labels.

I will share some of my personal experiences in the next post.

If anyone wishes to contribute their views as well, remember to consider how much or little of your personal details you would like to share, since this is a public forum after all.

If you don't feel you are able to discuss complex matters that require in depth thought, that is okay.
But normally people are able to explain to others why they hold an opinion.

Babdoc thanks for sharing your thoughts and experiences! It's reassuring (and a bit unsettling) to hear other autistic women undergo similar issues and feel alienated from their peers growing up. All these years thinking it was just me....
I'm glad that you've found happiness with a partner and family and feel content in your female body via feminism. We are definitely fortunate to have avoided the pressures of transgender ideology. I naively thought kids today have it easier to dress how they wish and be who they are, but it seems like almost overnight things are regressing towards stereotypes.

On Saturday the Today programme on Radio 4 was edited by Charles Moore. He's a committed Conservative and is well-known for writing a massive biography of Margaret Thatcher.

He choose a transgender (FtM) relative as a guest who spoke about the relevance of their autism to their transition.

www.bbc.co.uk/sounds/play/p07z278v starting at 7.50

Yet again, the thing that comes across is fleeing womanhood as being a problematical state in the modern world, and one that's particularly problematical for people on the autistic spectrum.

he choose
he chose

Thank you littlbrowndog and chilling19. I'm glad you found the posts useful and resonated with some of the experiences. I could see the unfairness and sexism but the most frustrating part was the sense of powerlessness against it all. I couldn't understand why the adults didn't see what I was seeing. Or maybe they pretended not to.....

WomanBornNotWorn thanks for the kind words. I've never viewed my writing as particularly good. I take an agonisingly long time to pick the right words and I try to be clear and honest in describing my thoughts and experiences.
I've shared tiny bits of my life here and there online in various groups and forums over the years. This is the first time I've posted a detailed description of my life from a GC and autistic perspective and it's taken me months to write it all as it brings up unpleasant memories. I don't know where else this info would be useful. I started the thread in the hope of seeing how other autistic women have dealt with similar issues and if our experiences can help others.

sansgender I've noticed the lack of GC arguments on Facebook autistic groups too. I suppose I contribute to this problem in some ways as I'm not openly GC yet.

I try where I can to push GC arguments when I see women post about being frustrated that they aren't like others or are anxious about their GNC appearance or interests. I encourage them to be themselves and that this doesn't mean they aren't woman enough or whatever.

I have in recent months started being more openly critical when certain trans related stuff is posted and although I get likes, some posts of mine have been deleted. I try to tread carefully so I can keep holding the GC line without being pushed out of the group. I know lurkers will read and agree with my posts but feel apprehensive to openly like or reply because they don't want their friends knowing they might have doubts or criticisms.

It's ironic that it took me a long time to realise I was autistic and find my tribe so to speak but risk being banned or ostracised from such groups for asking logical questions and applying the same reasoning that I would for any other subject matter.

I think that this sort of thing is an important resource and I'd love to see it available more widely. This alternative viewpoint needs to be heard by autistic youngsters being swept up in this harmful ideology.

These experiences also need to be heard by clinicians working in gender clinics.

My story...

I grew up in the 70s and 80s. I have memories of being given a doll at the age of 4 by nursery, and being upset as I wanted a car like the boys were given (doll got chucked in a cupboard and never looked at again). I never had dolls and never wanted them.

I remember at about the age of 7 or 8 asking for a car racing toy for Christmas. I recall my dad briefly querying it as it was 'a boy toy' but I stood firm, he didn't raise it again and I got the toy.

I hated pink (and still dislike it). Fortunately, in those days, toys had not been pinkified and pink was easily avoided.

I recall playing families with my best friend (again, aged about 4) and always wanting to be the dad.

Having said that, I did not like babies and wanted nothing to do with them. I was well into my 30s before I changed from being absolutely sure I never wanted children.

I hated my body during puberty. I hated my breasts. I hated my curves. I hated menstruating. I longed for a boyish body shape. I never liked wearing clothes to show my body shape - and I still don't. Baggy, comfortable stuff all the way.

I remember going to social events as a teen and always feeling like s spare part. I used to hang out with the boys, where we could talk about science or football (although mainly listen in my case, I wasn't much of a talker). I couldn't relate to the conversations the girls were having about make up, fashion and boys.

I spent my whole youth feeling like an outsider. Desperate to be accepted and part of things, but unable to navigate the path to get me there. I was very lonely.

I went into a STEM career and have gradually become comfortable in rejecting most of the trappings of femininity.

I remember in my 20s or 30s doing online quizzes about male Vs female brains. I always came out biased towards the male brain. I accepted that narrative as it made sense to me. It seemed to explain a lot about me. Fortunately, that is as far as things went in those days. Of course, now I see it as the bullshit stereotyping it was. Being logical, good at maths and spacial reasoning, but rubbish at fluffy emotional interpretation is nothing to do with male Vs female brain. But at the time I believed it.

I was in my 40s before it even crossed my mind that I could be autistic. I pursued a diagnosis because I felt it would help me understand myself better. I was diagnosed a few years later.

My heart now cries for all the girls who are now being irreversibly damaged by this ideology.

Thank you so much for this thread I'm going to read and re read the posts later. I have a daughter with autism diagnosed age two who informed me a few months ago that she was trans. I'm lost and scared and any discussion ends with her calling me cis and transphobic.
It came out of the blue when she decided to chop off her hair despite my offering to pay and take her to have it done professionally however she wanted (had to anyway to put right the mess she had made)
It's an elephant ever present in the room although there has been no efforts made for her to advance her status, she dresses like she always has (pretty gender neutral) Her hair has grown back and she continues to enjoy the interests she always has had. She calls herself a trans that likes female pursuits (collects and remodels dolls) and has female personality traits (very sensitive, anxious, quiet and passive)
I'm hoping that we both look back one day and see it as a phase she went through and she is happy as the person she is and the sex she was born.

I’m autistic and would have been trans if I hadn’t been lucky enough to be born in the 70s.
As it is I don’t conform to stereotypes.
Most autistic middle aged women I know are GC.
I’ve noticed that autism groups tend to very aggressively go along with TWAW, and I wonder if that’s because they’ve found their tribe (difficult to do with autism) and will do anything to protect that.
I had to reach middle age before having steady friendships, and I can’t emphasise enough how much that has changed my life.

Marcy, Nonny - I think you’re right about autism groups, particularly on FB. A woman raised a question on one of the bigger groups about finding pronouns especially difficult due to not being able to process the cognitive dissonance between evidence seen/person’s desired reality. There were a lot of ‘me too’ comments before it got deleted by the mods.

There are some groups for GC autistics. We tend to get ignored because our literal inability to comply is inconvenient for the ‘be kind’ brigade.

I remember when feminism wanted to abolish societally imposed differences between men and women...

@Crake do you think the majority of feminists who are critical of gender ideology do not want to abolish these socially imposed differences? Sorry if I have misunderstood you but they very much do.

The whole point is, wear what you like, play with what you like, do what you like, as long as you're not hurting anyone - including yourself. Your body is your body, and your sex is your sex. All the rest is your personality and has no bearing on whether you're a man or woman. Saying that your interests, feelings and clothing preferences are signs of some kind of inate gender is just sexism.

I think one of the things that would be helpful to younger autistic girls is hearing about feminism and hearing the logical arguments against gender stereotyping and so on. Just hearing the other side. We know they hear the gender identity stuff and many are taught it as if it's a fact. They probably don't hear the other side so much. And #nodebate is a large part of why.

Another thing I think would be useful is not just learning about gender roles, and stereotyping and that we don't have to follow them, but also pointing out the ways we (at least some of us but I'd say society in general) subtly look down upon things that have been designated as feminine things. Like how the colour pink is fine for girls, but not for boys, and not for girls who don't want to be like girls.. you even see gender critical people now saying things like "I always hated pink". Well, it's a colour, and there's nothing inherently wrong with it. We'd find it a bit odd of hoardes of people declared their hatred for the colour orange for example. (I'm sure some people do genuinely dislike the colour pink, it's just the example that came to me).

I am autistic though I didn't know it back then. But I think it would be helpful for all children really. Male, female, autistic or not.

Nonny, your writing is very clear and insightful and resonates with some of my experiences. I'm currently going through the autism diagnosis pathway on the NHS (had my first appointment, now they need to speak to people who knew me during infancy and as an adult).

I will write more later, I too am very glad that trans issues were not around when I was a teen.

TonOfLeas I have a vague memory of playing with a set of toy sports cars, motorcycles and even some construction vehicles. They seemed to disappear at some point. I suspect my mum gave them away. My dad was more likely to encourage my interests. He always brought home science and technology magazines because he knew I'd love reading them.

Gosh, I had completely forgotten about the online tests I used to do in my early twenties! The male vs female brain ones and I'd consistently get the result as male brain too. I also would try to search for info on all kinds of personality disorders and problems as I thought there was something seriously wrong with me because I struggled to have the appropriate emotional response to situations or struggled with social interactions. I think I tried to convince myself at one point that I had 'Schizoid personality disorder' because I was desperate to make sense of why I was different. As you say, luckily there was no trans ideology so these idle investigations remained that way. Imagine coming across trans ideology as a young person today, being told you must definitely be in the wrong body and therefore you have to jump into hormones and surgery otherwise if you don't get access to these things ASAP then you could end up dead like lots of trans people. Awful info to discover when you are in a vulnerable state of mind and feel isolated.

I'm interested in following this discussion I have a friend who has in the last few years really started pushing gender ideology, and also autism lobbying. The catalyst for the latter was her daughter being diagnosed as autistic and she came to the conclusion (I'd say correctly) that she also is autistic.
It's been a big worry to me for her and her family.
One thing I have noticed is although she sees herself as pro-science and is big into the skeptic community, she seems to have very little ability to look at alternate sources, or especially to evaluate different information or POV. It's all about "refuting" the evidence of the bad people who think the wrong things, usually by finding articles that say they refute them. Recently she has been pushing the virtues of deplatforming.

Hi Nonny, you write beautifully I'm going to answer however i'm not formally diagnosed. I hope that's ok with you. I've been trying to get an NHS assessment for almost three years now so am hopeful that I might get assessed soon. I'm pretty gender conforming as I have longish hair and wear dresses at work. However that's mainly because I hate having my hair cut and find dresses comfier than trousers generally.

I'm a member of quite a few fb groups for autistic women and have noticed a real emphasis on unquestioning support for non gc thinking. Whenever someone has tried to post something that is gc they often get piled on by other members. It tends to get really heated quickly and as I'm not officially 'out' due to being undiagnosed I don't feel that I can really join in so I mainly lurk and watch.

I've always felt like an alien compared to other people around me. Until I came to the realisation that I might be autistic I really struggled with my mental health particularly with self confidence, anxiety and was really lonely. I can completely see why young autistic people might see freedom in the trans movement and it perhaps offers them an answer to why they feel different. I feel extremely lucky to have been born in the early 80's and worry for my non gender conforming daughter if things continue like this.

Do you think maybe there is an element of not questioning authorities and experts on this? It's something I've noticed with autistic persons in other settings I've been involved in. Once something is accepted as authoritative it becomes very difficult to shift that perspective.

I’m asd and didn’t understand gender stereotypes as a child. I still don’t and don’t conform to the,m.

This is a fascinating thread and much of it resonates really deeply with me. I’m convinced, had I been hitting puberty now rather than in the 80s, that I would be trans. I hated my female body as a teen. I tried to disguise it and deliberately tried to look as androgynous as possible. I was frequently misgendered. Like the OP I resented being expected to stay with female relatives. I had no interest in their conversations which seemed dominated by domestic stuff and childcare. I only realised later this was just a reflection of their lives which were dominated by these things whether they wanted them to or not.

I seriously considered a hysterectomy as I loathed having periods and didn’t see the point as I never wanted children. My mother told me no doctor in the country would agree to it as I was too young and I might change my mind. She was right. I changed my mind in my late 20s. But it terrifies me to think of what might happen to a girl feeling like this today. There was no internet to help me find my tribe so I have spent most of my life feeling like an outsider who is just not very good at being a woman. But today what might happen to a girl with these feelings, who is searching for explanations or ways to be accepted?

Harriet I think my issue with pink was that, as a female, I was expected to like it and want things in that colour. Whether it is my ASD or my contrary nature - but as soon as someone tells me I should or shouldn't like/do/have something, it immediately triggers the opposite reaction. So, people telling me as a child that I should like pink resulted in me feeling the exact opposite.

Of course, my rational, adult mind recognises it is just a colour like any other. But rational, adult minds don't completely overwrite those childhood feelings.

Goosefoot your comment about not questioning authorities or experts is interesting. I recognise that my instinct is usually to obey rules. So if there is a sign saying "don't walk on the grass" then I don't walk on the grass even if others are.

But I also like logic. I like things to make sense. I like to understand them. And if experts are not making sense then I'm not going to defer to them. Also, fairness is important to me. If one side is not being fair then that will make me question.

In this debate (I use the term loosely) those pushing this ideology neither make sense nor act fairly.

hiredandsqueak I'm sorry that you are having to deal with an autistic daughter who has decided she is trans. It must be very stressful if attempts at conversation escalate to her feeling you are being transphobic.

Maybe you are already aware of another thread here for parents of children who exhibit ROGD. There seems to be a lot of useful info and support there that might help you. On the positive side, if she is continuing to be herself and isn't pushing for further action then fingers crossed it stays that way and she might eventually decide to drop the label and find something else to occupy herself with.

Autistic people are prone to getting very obsessed with specific topics or activities for long periods of times. I can see how things can spiral out of hand if a teenager fixated on gender identity and tied themselves up in knots trying to find the 'right' gender to box themselves into.
I am not a parent so don't have any practical experience, but I guess it might help if she was encouraged and nudged to focus on things other than gender identity. The more she pours her energy and enthusiasm into other special interests and hobbies, the less time she will spend on trans ideology and hopefully it will be a phase that she will grow out of.

Thank you Nonny for your kind words. I am hoping it is just a phase and we will move onto something else soon enough. I think dd is struggling to decide where she fits and because she doesn't fit her stereotypical idea of a female then she has decided she must be trans.
I point out that not wearing dresses or make up and having short hair doesn't make you not a woman any more than wearing trousers, having short hair and no make up makes you a man.
I ask her am I a man because I have short hair wear trousers and no make up? She agrees I am a woman so I ask her why she isn't a woman when she is the same as me? She says because she feels like a man. I ask how does she know what a man feels and then I am hating her because I shouldn't challenge what she thinks.
It's very difficult and I hope that even though she hates me for challenging her that if nothing else it makes her think and hear a different viewpoint.