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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

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Original poster

Caster Semenya - What Can I Do to Help Stop the Madness?

50 replies

Fr0thandBubble · 26/12/2019 23:25

When I think of Caster Semenya, etc., I get SO angry. How can it be right that someone with XY chromosomes gets to compete in a women’s event? How can it be right that the World’s top 3 “women’s” 800m runners have XY chromosomes?

To me, it seems so palpably wrong. But my question is how can I help stop this? Are there pressure groups I can join? People I can write to, etc? I feel really strongly about this and hate to sit by when women athletes are pushed aside by intersex athletes (who wouldn’t have a hope in hell of competing in the men’s events).

OP posts:
PlayYouLikeAShark · 26/12/2019 23:44

Bunbury says nope.

aliasundercover · 27/12/2019 00:20

PlayYouLikeAShark

:)

FlamingoAndJohn · 27/12/2019 00:23

You say etc. Who are the others?

ferrier · 27/12/2019 00:32

Caster Semenya, Francine Niyonsaba and Margaret Wambui.

Fieldofgreycorn · 27/12/2019 01:14

Yes write to the IOC they make the rules. Bet they can’t wait to hear from you.

GeordieTerf · 27/12/2019 01:21

The situation with Caster is quite unique, and so it shouldn't be confused with the "trans women in sports" issue.

MyMajesty · 27/12/2019 01:23

What is the situation with Caster?

Pieceofpurplesky · 27/12/2019 01:48

Caster Semenya was born with DSD and is intersex. When she was born she was identified as female by the doctors. It was only later discovered that she is intersex. She has more of one hormone than women and less than men. Please don't confuse her issue with the trans one.

nolongersurprised · 27/12/2019 02:08

She has more of one hormone than women and less than men.

What do you mean by this? Do you mean testosterone?

Caster has XY chromosomes and produces testosterone from internal testes that is within the normal range for men.

Pieceofpurplesky · 27/12/2019 02:17

There is an imbalance - sorry it's late and I can't sleep as I am coughing.
I agree that she shouldn't race with women but also she shouldn't have to race against men. It's a difficult one and completely different to a trans issue. The option of a testosterone blocker was given at some point I think.

nolongersurprised · 27/12/2019 02:19

What is the situation with Caster?

Caster has 5 alpha reductase deficiency which results in male genitalia not forming properly, and many are born looking like females. However at puberty virilisation from internal testes occurs and male physiological sporting advantages occur as a result. It becomes obvious at puberty that they are not female.

Caster hasn’t been banned from competing as a woman, just told in order to run the 800m the male testosterone levels need to be reduced. The reduced levels are still About 3x higher than produced by healthy women but when this has been done this in the past Caster stops winning, hence various protests etc.

The current rules for DSD athletes are that if they are XY and androgen sensitive then their testosterone needs to be suppressed in order to compete against women.

nolongersurprised · 27/12/2019 02:23

There is an imbalance - sorry it's late and I can't sleep as I am coughing.

No there’s not. Caster has normal Male levels of testosterone. Caster for a while was saying, “I am a woman with hyperandrogenism” suggesting an imbalance but there is nothing female about Caster biologically.

MyMajesty · 27/12/2019 02:34

So Caster, as an intersex male, is subject to the same rules as transwomen?
It's very unfortunate if Caster began a successful sporting career in the belief of being female.

FWRLurker · 27/12/2019 04:00

Ehhh in my view if she was observed to be female at birth (like the rest of us, by being observed to have female external genitalia) then she would have experienced female socialization and discrimination rather than male. however at the same time it’s not exactly fair for her to compete against biological women if she’s testosterone sensitive. I also don’t think it’s fair to ask Caster to artificially reduce hormone levels. Ultimately casters condition should have been caught much earlier and unfortunately since she has a biological advantage she should not have been allowed to compete against biological women.

However this has literally nothing to do with “gender identity”. We need to make a clean line here. Boys born with penises and testes, and raised being acknowledged as males but who feel they should have been female are not intersex. therefore it’s complete nonsense to put them in a female category for sports.

lydiamajora · 27/12/2019 04:27

FWRlurker: Ehhh in my view if she was observed to be female at birth (like the rest of us, by being observed to have female external genitalia) then she would have experienced female socialization and discrimination rather than male.

I'm sure you aren't asserting otherwise, but I feel compelled to say that sports are not segregated by the type of socialization received by the athlete. It really sucks that Semenya cannot fairly compete against women or men, but female athletes don't deserve to bear the consequences.

NotBadConsidering · 27/12/2019 04:58

Ultimately casters condition should have been caught much earlier and unfortunately since she has a biological advantage she should not have been allowed to compete against biological women.

Caster’s diagnosis of being male with 5-ARD was made in 2009, well before Caster went on to win multiple gold medals and make money from sponsorships, depriving women of those chances. And Caster’s socialisation has been discussed before and isn’t clear cut. It’s a travesty and a disgrace that Caster was allowed to compete for 10 years, despite knowledge of the condition.

Unfortunately nothing can be done now. Caster has been successfully marketed as the victim and those women who lost those opportunities will never have the chance to win them back, much in the same way as those who get medals when doping cheats are caught retrospectively don’t feel like they actually won. Caster should not have to lower (normal male) testosterone levels but equally Caster should not be allowed to compete with women at any distance.

Caster is not excluded from competing as a male; the only reasons this doesn’t happen would because it would highlight the injustice of the last 10 years and Caster would be thoroughly mediocre.

thatmustbenigelwiththebrie · 27/12/2019 04:58

I struggle with this. On the one hand yes, she did have an unfair advantage that's not her "fault". On the other, couldn't they same thing be said about a very tall pole vaulter or a sprinter with more than average fast twitch muscles? No one would question their place in a competition.

NotBadConsidering · 27/12/2019 05:05

Sorry, that really is a tiresome argument. Ask yourself this: why do we segregate sport by sex in the first place?

Datun · 27/12/2019 06:04

thatmustbenigelwiththebrie

Sports are segregated in a number of different ways and for a variety of reasons.

Separating by sex allows women and girls a chance to compete. As a group. If we didn't, they couldn't.

Here's why.

boysvswomen.com/#/

StrangeLookingParasite · 27/12/2019 08:41

Having seen interviews with Semenya, this person in no way identifies with women, referring to them as they. Semenya only calls themselves female on the track.

Dozer · 27/12/2019 08:46

Caster has biological advantages and she and others with intersex conditions should not he competing in the women’s category.

Sad for women with intersex conditions, but fairness and single sex sports are more important.

SidJS · 27/12/2019 08:57

I would be interested in knowing the history of intersex athletes in competitive sports and their success rates and how this was historically viewed, and contrast it now with the conflation of the trans issue with men competing against women.

I think the socialisation aspect has some relevance when viewed from the gross underfunding and lack of prioritisation of women's sports at every level. The utter hypocrisy of the IOC etc - sport for everyone - forgetting everyone includes women - tell that to Saudi Arabia.

Oblomov20 · 27/12/2019 09:10

OP asked if there was anything she could actually DO.
Is there? Any online objection letter.

The Semenya case is complicated. But should have been sorted by now. The governing agencies don't seem to have the bollocks Wink to deal with it.

NeurotrashWarrior · 27/12/2019 10:09

Any sign of the op yet? Hmm

OhHolyJesus · 27/12/2019 10:22

In response to the OP, there is nothing you can do to stop the madness, it is far too late for that.

Caster is actually in women's football now and it has been reported that the team and coaches are very happy for Caster to be joining them.

Write to anyone you like but everyone from the IOC to British Gymnastics to small sports clubs in the UK probably think that Caster is a woman and believe that TWAW (and bade their policies on this), so whilst DSD is based on biology and Gender Identity is to do with feelings Caster and those like Caster will be used as the trans stick to beat women with, whether they are in sport or not, despite the two not being connected.